Bullet Collection R.W.S Laboratory Files – Stadeln, Bavaria


#1

The pictures below show a wooden box holding over 140 envelopes, each containing a single or multiple bullets some with half sections. These range in calibre from 5.6mm through to 11.2mm and are a mix of military and sporting bullets, although the latter form the majority. The fact that the stencilling on the box is in English, and the date, suggest that these bullets were seized by allied intelligence teams, (presumably American in that area) in 1945, but I have no evidence to support this. The writing on the envelopes is also mainly in English.

Can anyone tell me anything about the box and its contents?

The box was the property of Freddy Mead a great collector who sadly passed away two years ago. I have been asked by Freddy’s widow to sell the box and will be taking it with me to the ECRA meeting in Germany. All the proceeds will go to her.

Thanks in advance

Buster


#2

The 9 mm specimen appears, despite the English language notes on the envelope, to be some sort of gauge, perhaps throat erosion, than a bullet finished or unfinished. I don’t know for sure of course, I have never actually seen it. It just doesn’t look like a bullet to me though, rifle or pistol.

Edited for spelling error only.


#3

I thought it was a bit odd too. I will take some better pics of it and put them up tomorrow.

Buster


#4

Looks like the work of the team in which Phil B.Sharpe was a prominent member…doing Intelligence analysis of all the German Ammunition Factories and extracting all the pertinent Information of Ballistic Use (Military and Civilian).
I forget the complete name of the Unit, but it was something like “CIOS”. Sharpe interrogated ( “interviewed”) most of the managers and Technical people of all the Ammunition Factories in the Western Zone ( and a few who had escaped from the Russians specifically to surrender to US Forces), gathering huge amounts of Technical Information.
I think Sharpe spoke fluent Technical German, which was a great help as well.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#5

Very few cartridges used that .440" / 11,2 mm bullet, that was the same diameter used on the 11 Mauser M71 cartridge.

The only .440" cartridges that I am aware of are three Schuler rounds, the 11.2 X 60 mm ( itself an hotter and rimless version of the 11 Mauser) , the 11.2 X 72 mm and the 11.2 X 72 R mm


#6

Doc, You are right the combined British/American Intelligence exploitation effort was CIOS (Combined Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee). There was also a similar British effort, BIOS (British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee) operating out of 32 Bryanston Square W1 in London. These efforts included all aspects of German Technology, not just small arms ammunition. I think the entire effort was run out of, or fed into the Halstead Exploitation Center (HEC) at Seven Oaks in Kent (The exclusively British effort may have been seperate). They not only managed the the team reports and the tons of paperwork that was taken from the German files, but some actual hardware (at least in small arms ammunition) seems to have found it’s way through the Center (as an aside, I saw a comment that a full train load of documents and material “disappeared” in a railyard in Paris-I think-an there was concern over someone stealing it all). The objective was not only military technology but any industrial technology. The CIOS reports had a statement on the cover that read in part:

The BIOS have a similar statement on the cover. In the 1950s, the British published a hardbound red book that was about 1 1/2 inches thick that contined a listing/index of the material and the associated reference number. The material was divided into industrial areas as I remember and Small Arms Ammunition was one of the areas. I saw a copy of the book in the Imperial War Museum in London in the mid-1970 and made a copy of the SAA section which I may have or I may have sent to the Woodin Lab. The I requested access to some of the material through the IWM. The British material was mostly on microfilm and was stored in a building in London but they had a fire in the late-1960s which destroyed some of the material but much of it was mixed up as a result of the fire and I found that only about 20% of what I requested was both available and was the material listed in the index.

Somewhere I saw a statement that the US also had a copy of the material. When I was stationed at Eglin AFB, I asked the Armament Lab technical liberary if they could locate these files. They found scattered files in some of the DOD and US Government sources, but nothing approaching the full file on ammunition (I had given them a copy of the British indes marking the ones I was interested in and none of these were available). The liberary put a lot of effort on this effort because early on they found two files (one on some munitions related chemistry subject) that had direct relevance to ongoing Lab research and the project managers were delighted to get the old data. The Lab got positive strokes and chased this material hard until they ran out of ideas. I suspect the US material was not maintained in a central file but was sent out to the activities most likely to use it and lay there unread until someone threw it away. I never found any evidence of a US index like the one in the IWM.

Major Phil Sharp was part of the small arms area, perhaps the leader of one of the teams. I believe a senior US member (perhaps only for Small Arms) was Col G. B. Jarrett. A British Capt H.B.C. Pollard was involved in the SAA CIOS and BIOS efforts. He appears to have been a member of BIOS team 2. I suspect from the names and other indications that this was initially a British effort and the US involvement was grafted on top of the BIOS effort so the British members operated in both CIOS and BIOS roles. For example the interview with Dr Langweiler who invented the Panzafaust and was deeply involved in lots of other munitions research was purely a BIOS effort as far as I can tell. This was a very organized effort with “BIOS Black List Item 22” being “Armament Ballistics” and with specifically numbered intelligence targets. For example Maj Hartmann who Maj Sharp interviewed was associated with CIOS “Target Number 2/17 Artillery and Weapons” whatever that was. At that time Maj Sharp’s title was CIOS, G-2 Division, SHAEF (rear) APO 413.

There was a huge amount of information collected, and it is a shame that so little is available to the researchers.

The last of Buster’s photos contains a note that the information was translated in Oct 1950. This makes me think that the Box of bullets were some of the material still being filed by the HEC.

I’m sure others out there on the Forum know a lot more about this effort than I do and have facts to add. An update on the data available through the IWM would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Lew


#7

I have taken a few more photographs for people to view.

John - I have tried to do a composite of the 8mm experimental. The photograph shows the top of the bullet, which is like a hollow piston, removed from the base into which it fits. There is also a view into the top of the piston. I have no idea what it is. Photography not great, but I am short of time.

Lew - Thanks for your input which is fascinating. Regret though that there is no 9mm.

The signature ‘S Sloper’ appears on a few of the envelopes this may mean something to somebody out there.

Thanks for the replies so far

Buster


#8

Buster - thanks for the additional pictures. It still looks more like a tool than any kind of a bullet, but who knows. It is not impossible that it was picked up at the factory and they thought it was an experiment bullet when it was actually a gauge of some sort, but it is probably more likely that it is some sort of weird bullet, since those people who grabbed up this stuff pretty much knew what they were doing.


#9

[quote=“Lew”]Doc, You are right the combined British/American Intelligence exploitation effort was CIOS (Combined Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee). There was also a similar British effort, BIOS (British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee) operating out of 32 Bryanston Square W1 in London. These efforts included all aspects of German Technology, not just small arms ammunition. I think the entire effort was run out of, or fed into the Halstead Exploitation Center (HEC) at Seven Oaks in Kent (The exclusively British effort may have been seperate). They not only managed the the team reports and the tons of paperwork that was taken from the German files, but some actual hardware (at least in small arms ammunition) seems to have found it’s way through the Center (as an aside, I saw a comment that a full train load of documents and material “disappeared” in a railyard in Paris-I think-an there was concern over someone stealing it all). The objective was not only military technology but any industrial technology. The CIOS reports had a statement on the cover that read in part:

The BIOS have a similar statement on the cover. In the 1950s, the British published a hardbound red book that was about 1 1/2 inches thick that contined a listing/index of the material and the associated reference number. The material was divided into industrial areas as I remember and Small Arms Ammunition was one of the areas. I saw a copy of the book in the Imperial War Museum in London in the mid-1970 and made a copy of the SAA section which I may have or I may have sent to the Woodin Lab. The I requested access to some of the material through the IWM. The British material was mostly on microfilm and was stored in a building in London but they had a fire in the late-1960s which destroyed some of the material but much of it was mixed up as a result of the fire and I found that only about 20% of what I requested was both available and was the material listed in the index.

Somewhere I saw a statement that the US also had a copy of the material. When I was stationed at Eglin AFB, I asked the Armament Lab technical liberary if they could locate these files. They found scattered files in some of the DOD and US Government sources, but nothing approaching the full file on ammunition (I had given them a copy of the British indes marking the ones I was interested in and none of these were available). The liberary put a lot of effort on this effort because early on they found two files (one on some munitions related chemistry subject) that had direct relevance to ongoing Lab research and the project managers were delighted to get the old data. The Lab got positive strokes and chased this material hard until they ran out of ideas. I suspect the US material was not maintained in a central file but was sent out to the activities most likely to use it and lay there unread until someone threw it away. I never found any evidence of a US index like the one in the IWM.

Major Phil Sharp was part of the small arms area, perhaps the leader of one of the teams. I believe a senior US member (perhaps only for Small Arms) was Col G. B. Jarrett. A British Capt H.B.C. Pollard was involved in the SAA CIOS and BIOS efforts. He appears to have been a member of BIOS team 2. I suspect from the names and other indications that this was initially a British effort and the US involvement was grafted on top of the BIOS effort so the British members operated in both CIOS and BIOS roles. For example the interview with Dr Langweiler who invented the Panzafaust and was deeply involved in lots of other munitions research was purely a BIOS effort as far as I can tell. This was a very organized effort with “BIOS Black List Item 22” being “Armament Ballistics” and with specifically numbered intelligence targets. For example Maj Hartmann who Maj Sharp interviewed was associated with CIOS “Target Number 2/17 Artillery and Weapons” whatever that was. At that time Maj Sharp’s title was CIOS, G-2 Division, SHAEF (rear) APO 413.

There was a huge amount of information collected, and it is a shame that so little is available to the researchers.

The last of Buster’s photos contains a note that the information was translated in Oct 1950. This makes me think that the Box of bullets were some of the material still being filed by the HEC.

I’m sure others out there on the Forum know a lot more about this effort than I do and have facts to add. An update on the data available through the IWM would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Lew[/quote]

GREAT INFO. During the golden era of collecting Phil Sharpe, Col. Jarrett and Charlie Yust were all at Aberdeen PG.

Another tech-intel unit operating out of Aberdeen is even less known. Called the “Kangaroos” they hopped from installation to factory to PGs and bases in Germany recovering intel before our Allies could get to it. Long time ICCA and IAA member , F. Phillips Williamson , was in it and had very interesting stories to tell which included the capture of Hillersleben. He wrote the official report. I transfered his ammo collection to Woodin Lab. several years ago. He died last year. Little known in the general collecting circles he was a serious big game hunter with a full tiger pelt on his bed. Very serious fellow who saved many US air crew lives by determing a fault in the wiring on medium bombers made at Martin Marietta , Baltimore where he worked before going into the Army.


#10

John, There was also a well known cartridge collector in Canada who was part of the CIOS effort as a Sgt as I recall. He had some incredible German stuff that came out about 15 years ago or so. I can’t remember his name but you or one of Canadian collectors probably can. These guys were real treasures.

Cheers,

Lew


#11

I have only been able to identify 2 “Kangaroos”. This was a very small unit with a unique mission and the higest priority. I have more information and details but have run out of time to research this unit. They were first on site on major targets including Hillersleben. The Soviets put out death threats for Williamson as a result of his allowing a Free Polish unit to make off with weapons which had been confiscated from and by the Germans. These were later used against Soviet troops. Anyone with interest to research this I will gladly provide additional information. As of my last efforts most of this was still classified. Their insignia was the typical ordnance bomb with the letter I in the center. I have never seen one for sale. I had hoped to get the one from Williamson but he died in Texas at his Winter home and his family in Maryland were not interested in his history so it was lost. I sold his large caliber items and the smaller ones went to Bill. There is still much to be known about our WW2 era tech-intel .


#12

What kin of brenneke bullet is that?


#13

F. Phillips Williamson died last year. I helped him sell his collection and transfer some major pieces to Woodin lab. The Kangaroo unit patch was the typical ordnance bomb with a letter I in the center. I have never seen one for sale and his went to his Granddaughter. Does anyone know any more about this unit? Bill Woodin knew Wiiliamson well but knows no more than I about the unit. Williamson had very interesting stories about Hillersleben and other nazi ordnance sites. I wish that I had written them down.