Bullets with poison or other nasty stuff on them?


#1

This was on another Forum that some of us visit.

If shtf, and we are all fighting to survive, what do people on here think of ‘tainting’ bullets? As in, maybe with feces or other? I have thought about this, and think that if I am attacked then I want to do everything possible to end the threat. I feel like this would help in seriously wounding the attacker, even if they get away. Why does it matter? Well, if they attack me it immediatly makes them the ‘bad’ guy, and if I wing them in the arm of leg and they get away, having an immediatly inffected wound makes it worse…a lot worse. A clean bullet does one thing, a dirty bullet does another. Remeber, all treaties are out the door at this point.

No comment.

Ray


#2

Thats just plain silly. Has he not heard of antibiotics?

In the middle ages arrows were reused over and over, salvaged from corpses on the battlefield or the ground and fired back. That would kill you even if the wound didn’t.

The use of tallow in the grooves of muzzle loading bullets could have much the same effect creating infections in the wound and festering since the tallow was not clean and being animal fat would harbour all sorts of nasty bugs.

However, the biggest danger to soldiers prior to the introduction of antibiotics was lack of sanitation in the camps. In the ACW more men died in epidemics than through enemy action and that was fairly standard.

The biggest cause of death to American soldiers during the Indian Wars was frostbite and the resulting infections.


#3

Apart from the tortured prose, what does he clean the barrel with … a toilet brush?

Peter


#4

Whilst arrows could “infect” wounds directly,
“Tallow” on Bullets had little or NO effect (it was sterilised by travelling down a Hot barrel at high speed and friction).

What did cause the infection was the Bullet, (slow, large diameter) smashing thru layers of often dirty clothing, carried these fragments into the wound, where of course, with the none-to-clean operating methods, were allowed to fester etc…with fatal results ( hence the “amputate to save life” principle of battlefield surgery, up to the US Civil war and early 1900s.) Even with the availability of Antiseptics etc.

In the Royal Navy, it was common practice for officers to don clean underwear and uniforms before a Sea-battle, to reduce the “wound potential” of Fibres etc being carried into an often messy wound by Gunfire and iron and Wood splinter effects…The common sailors of course, “were expendable”, although some more caring commanders issued new and hopefully clean slops ( fatigue uniforms) before an expected battle.

La Garde’s seminal treatise on battlefiled surgery (Gunshot Wounds, 1914 and 1917) recounts the instance in the Russo-Japanese War (Siege of Port Arthur, 1904) where Russan soldiers, issued with Sheep Fleece Winter Jackets ( Manchurian winters are rigid) were dying of Anthrax Infections when wounded by Japanese 8mm Murata and 6,5mm Arisaka jacketed projectiles…The Bullets and other shrapnel were carrying the Spores of the disease, from the Fleece of the jackets, into the wounds…but the Russians accused the Japanese of using “tainted” Bullets…the same as at the Span-Am war, the Hearst newspapers accused the Spanish of using “Poisoned Bullets” (Verdigris covered 11mm Spanish Reformado ammo) against the US Volunteers ( no such thing, again, the lead bullets carried dirty fibres from the Unhygienic conditions of Cuba into the wounds ( again, LaGarde comments on this.)

La Garde also utilised the “Wide debridement” rule with all wounds, which ensured the removal of all foreign matter from the wound track, thus reducing or eliminating the Infection Potential. THis practice is still done today, in iraq and Afghanistan…IN WW I, its use saved many a wounded soldier from death by gangrene or galloping septicaemia. The Introduction of universal Tetanus shots for soldiers before 1914, also reduced the incidence of “lockjaw” deaths from C. tetanii found in battlefiled dirt and Horse manure…of which battlefileds then wqere usually liberally supplied.

Raegards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#5

I read a 1970s military wound care manual that detailed tests with E. Coli…they shot treated/infected bullets from handguns (unspecified velocities/chamber pressures) into pigs. The infection rate was 100%, no clothing involved, so there’s at least one instance of a common microcritter that wasn’t eradicated by a trip down the barrel.

The study also showed E. Coli (surprisingly to me) surviving in 80 proof liquor and some other otherwise inhospitable areas.

My wife is currently managing a DoD funded wound study involving MRSA in pigs (YUCK!).

As for the ‘survivalist dooky bullet’…I’d be worried about infections/exposure while applying said substance to the cartridge, loading mags, etc., and I’m pretty sure he’d be better off stockpiling meds, practicing shot placement, etc., instead of thinking up ways to taint perfectly good cartridges. I wonder what he’d handload into shotshells…or how…haha.


#6

Aside from readily available antibiotics, people these days are far more healthy and have more robust immune systems to fight off infection. This is due to fortified foods, and better overall health technology & immunization. Most people wouldn’t even get a serious infection from slight fecal contamination on a bullet that didn’t kill them. How about just shooting 4 or 5 bullets to get them the easy way?


#7

[quote=“DocAV”]
In the Royal Navy, it was common practice for officers to don clean underwear and uniforms before a Sea-battle, to reduce the “wound potential” of Fibres etc being carried into an often messy wound by Gunfire and iron and Wood splinter effects…The common sailors of course, “were expendable”, although some more caring commanders issued new and hopefully clean slops ( fatigue uniforms) before an expected battle.

Raegards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.[/quote]

Doc,

It was still standard practice to “clean” into fresh clothing, from underwear upwards, in the Royal Navy when action was expected in my service time (1959-73).

gravelbelly


#8

Well, I must say that you guys are treating this much kinder than I. My first and last reaction was, “Crazy kook. Wierdo. Does this guy vote? And drive a car on the freeway?”

Of course, on second thought, I can forgive you because you didn’t see the rest of his post. Something about digging a moat around his property. With pits having pointed stakes to impale anyone who was unfortunate to fall in. And the pointed sticks were poisoned too.

Ray


#9

Moats ain’t normal?!?!?


#10

Only in Arkansaw and Kansas. ;) And England.

And BTW, why isn’t Arkansaw spelled the way it’s pronounced?


#11

Ray

You just had to bring THAT up, didn’t you.


#12

Moats are legal in the UK, the MPs even charge the taxpayers to clean out the ones around their houses.


#13

Falcon,

you don’t have to mention that! Brits are known for sticking to tradition!!!

Hans
(That makes your islands so lovely)


#14

Was there not a scene in one or the James Cagney films where a man advocated smearing garlic onto his .45acp Tommy Gun bullets to induce blood poisioning in his victims? It could have easily been true in the 1920s prior to antibiotics.

The subject of this topic immediiately brought me to mind of the largely mythical effects of mercury bullets. I think this came up in one of the Jaws movies? Correct me if I am wrong?

Throughout all the wars and conflicts in history right up to WW2 infection and disease were the greatest killers. Even a fairly minor wound could prove fatal because of the lack of any sort of aftercare for the wounded and the filthy nature of swords, spears and similar weapons .

Even in the days of the Napolionic Wars very few men were killed outright by the Brown Bess type muskets. Many may have died of blood loss later but most were just abandonded on the battlefield because they knew they couldn’t be saved and they were a lost cause. Throughout history the treatment of the wounded was appalling. The practice on British Naval vessels of having a surgeon, even though he was little more than a sawbones was revolutionary in this respect. Not because they were concerned about the welfare of the men but simply because they needed to keep as many men as possible alive to crew the ships.


#15

I’ve heard that many of the lawmen and gunfighters in America’s Old West period also favored wearing freshly cleaned clothing–not only to look the part–but to avoid the introduction of nasties onto any gunshot wounds, as mentioned above.


#16

Anything smeared on a HV bt would probably be thrown off by cetrifugal force. A 7.62 NATO M80 bt spins at 2800 revs per second.


#17

Man, I have at least three good jokes about changing clothes before a battle or gunfight but I’m not allowed to tell them. Maybe we need a humor or general BS forum?


#18

[quote=“VinceGreen”]
The subject of this topic immediiately brought me to mind of the largely mythical effects of mercury bullets. I think this came up in one of the Jaws movies? Correct me if I am wrong?

.[/quote]

The first commercial book (1971) and perhaps movies (1973) talking about mercury bullet is “Day of the Jackal” , if i remember well and if I am not confusing with another book.

It works not to bad.

A funnier bullet is the gas oil one.

jp


#19

Surely the tip of a HP pistol round could be filled with something nasty as it would be kept in there by the forces acting on the bullet during firing. Something like caesium that explodes violently on contact with water with a wax seal over it could really ruin someones day if even a small amount was fired into them in a HP bullet.


#20

I’ve read that the allied troops stood gm bullets in water untill they had a coating of verdigris (that green stuff) The wound would then become infected because of this green stuff.

True…Dunno, what do you think?

Yes Ron, a BS fourm is required!