Cal .30 EXPERIMENTALS, THOMAS BULLETS


#1

The winning Cal .30 National Match cartridge for 1911 was submitted by W.R.A.Co. (W.R.A.Co. 2 11) Other entries that year included cartridges by P.C.Co., FA, UMC, and U.S.C.Co.

HWS I mentions that some experimentation appears to have been done in connection with the UMC contract, using Thomas Pointed bullets of at least two different weights. I believe the two cartridges on the right are from those experiments.

Ray


#2

Ray,

Very nice! Thank you for sharing that excellent pic.

Do you know if the Thomas bullet is typical of a flat based type? HWS I only shows the top of a loaded projectile in the drawing for that load.

Dave


#3

I thought I’d mention that the Thomas bullet in my 1909 UMC round weighs a curious 147 gr. on good scales and, the case having a cracked neck, the bullet can be plucked out whenever I want. It’s flat-based. Jack


#4

The only two Thomas Pointed bullets that I have hands-on experience with are the 150 and 170 grain (nominal) and they are both flat base. The 180 and 220 grain are listed as flat base but I don’t know if they are pointed. Fede would probably know.

Ray


#5

Related -


#6

RayMeketa:

THE 220 GRAIN HUDSON BULLET IS ROUND NOSED, I’D BET 30Army KNOWS FOR SURE ON THE 180 GRAIN.


#7

Cal. .30 Army Match Cartridges…

From left to right:
220 gr Round Nosed bullet, 1 cannelure, used to win 1903 Palma Match
220 gr Hudson-Thomas bullet, smooth, UMC began making these April, 1906
220 gr Hudson bullet, note unique nose profile, unknown if these were actually used in any official match…
203 gr Palma Trophy cartridge, Hudson-Thomas pointed bullet, to be single-loaded only, box states: “DO NOT FEED THROUGH MAGAZINE”, UMC began making these August, 1907
190 gr Thomas Pointed, box states: “MADE TO FEED THROUGH MAGAZINE”, UMC began making these November, 1907

rANDY


#8

Randy

Thanks for those photos. Identifying the various 30-40 bullets has always been one of those gray areas for me. This helps a lot.

Ray


#9

Here is a box for the 180 gr Thomas bullets, I assume the Pencil Point type; alas, the box is full of 150 gr Cal. .30 M1906 bullets.

Randy


#10

Here are some Winchester “Pointed Long Range” cartridges, all headstamped W.R.A.Co. .30 U.S.G.
From left to right: 150 gr, 180 gr, 190 gr, and a box for the 180 gr cartridges, unknown if used in matches.


Randy


#11

Ray and Randy, here is more information about the introduction dates of the different weights found in Thomas and Hudson-Thomas bullet match loadings by UMC.

Cal. .30 for Krag rifle:

  1. Thomas, 220 gr
    Work started on the summer of 1902.
    Not used in the Palma Centennial Trophy, held in on August 26, 1902 in Ottawa (won by the British team).
    Used in the Palma Trophy held on September 13, 1902 in Ottawa (also won by the British team).

1903, March 21: New Improved Thomas bullet announced by UMC

1903, July 11: New Thomas bullet, won Palma Trophy at the International Tournament, Bisley.

1903, July 18: Souvenir cartridge with Thomas bullet used to won Palma Trophy. No powder and packed in red box with printed slip.

1903, July 23: Souvenir cartridge with Thomas bullet given at the hardware manufacturer’s convention held in Saratoga.

1903, September 19: Thomas bullet, won the Wimbledon Cup at Sea Girt.

1904-1919: Listed by UMC from April, 1904 to July, 1907, July, and from June, 1909 to 1918/19 (not listed in 1908).

  1. Hudson-Thomas, 220 gr
    1905: UMC ad says “is about to be placed on the market”.

1906, February 1: Hudson-Thomas bullet announced.

1906-1907: Listed by UMC from July, 1906 to July, 1907. New Good for 1906.

  1. Hudson-Thomas Pointed, 203 gr
    1907: Hudson-Thomas Pointed won Palma Trophy, Ottawa, 1907.

1908: Listed by UMC in October, 1908. Weigth listed as 202 gr in the ballistic section (must be a typo). New Good for 1908.

1909: “Not meant to feed through magazine of Krag rifle” noted in UMC June, 1909 catalog.

Box states: “Palma Trophy Cartridge”, “Used by American Team 1907” and “Do not to feed through magazine”.

  1. Thomas Pointed, 190 gr
    1908: Thomas Pointed, 190 gr. Listed by UMC in October, 1908. New Good for 1908.

1909: Thomas Pointed. Listed by UMC in June, 1909. “Made to feed through magazine” noted.

Box states: “Palma Trophy Cartridge”, “Used by American Team 1907” and “Made to feed through magazine”

  1. Thomas Pointed, 180 gr
    No information.

Not listed in catalogs.

  1. Thomas Pointed 172 gr (spire point)
    1910-1919: “Made to feed through magazine”. Listed by UMC from 1910 to 1918/19.

Cal. .30 for Springfield rifle

  1. Hudson 202 gr
    1908, June: Loaded for competitive trials against USCCo and Winchester. Lost against USCCo 180 gr load.

Not listed in catalogs.

  1. Thomas Pointed 180 gr
    1908, June: Loaded for competitive trials against USCCo and Winchester. Lost against USCCo 180 gr load.

Not listed in catalogs.

  1. Thomas Pointed 150 gr (spire point)
    1909: Order placed in February and production started in June of that year.

Not listed in catalogs (see “160 gr” load).

  1. Thomas Pointed 172 gr (spire point)
    1909, June 24: A New Bullet, Thomas Pointed 172 gr, Used at Sea Girt, N. J., June 16th.

1909-1912: Listed by UMC from June, 1909 to 1911-12. New Good for 1909.

  1. Thomas Pointed 160 gr (spire point)
    1913-1919: Listed by UMC from 1913-14 to 1918-19.

The bullet weight would be a mistake and this is likely the 150 gr load that is not listed in any catalog.


No information about Thomas loadings offered between 1919 and 1922. Not listed in the UMC 1923 or subsequent catalogs.

Regards,

Fede


#12

Randy, do you have information confirming that this is a Hudson bullet? I believe it was designed by another individual named Walker, but I still can’t find where I read this.

Regards,

Fede


#13

Fede…

I have a Winchester bullet box, full of the bullets shown above, which has an add-on sticker on one side saying HUDSON BULLET

Randy


#14

Randy, thanks, I also found the article about the Walker bullet and you was right, of course. Below at right you can see the Hudson 220 gr and at left the Walker 220 gr, a bullet swaged in the style of the .44 Creedmoor (almost cylindrical). It was designed by L. N. Walker, a long range shooter and employee of the Remington Arms Co. (not UMC), and tested in mid 1903 using a Remington with a long throated chamber. Both bullet designs were illustrated in the Shooting and Fishing Aug. 25, 1904 issue.


Also, here is the earliest ad announcing the Thomas Pointed 172 gr (published June 24, 1909):

Regards,

Fede