Cal .30 LR, FAT65E4 Box


And now for something different.

A box of Cal .30 LR Experimental Cartridges, FAT65E4. FAT 21 bullet, boattail, GM, steel core. Manufactured in late 1952. hs FA 52. What would become the FAT104E2 and then the M59. The only such box that I’ve ever seen.




Why do you say that it is a T65E4 box ?
I believed that all of the .30 L.R. with steel core bullet (FAT11 or FAT21) were named T104xx (T104E2 with FAT21 bullet).




Note the Lot number - FA X30 1844A. Col. Frank Hackley has confirmed the designation and the details of their manufacture. I’m not sure when the cartridge was designated the T104E2 but it likely would have been in 1953 or 1954. It became the M59 upon adoption of the LR cartridge as the NATO standard.

Also, if you’ll look at your “T” lists, you’ll see the two entries - one for T65E4 and the later for T104E2.

I also have a photo of the so-called T65E5 cartridges but was not going to post it because of the low level of interest in these cartridges.

I don’t claim to know anything about these cartridges. If you think I’m wrong, or have other information, please post it.



Ray - I suspect that the level of interest is higher than you think. Comments are low because only those who specialize in them know much, if anything, about them. When I collected 7.9 x 57, my head was close to exploding trying to process all the information on this round, and remember it. The “8mm Mauser” in its day was almost as universal as the 7.62 x 57 and 5.56 x 45 are today. I know what you are saying in your other “NM Box thread” though. After all my study, the accumulation of several hundred boxes and hundres of other labels torn off, in photos, as well as over 12-1/2 thousand specimens, I didn’t know squat about the cartridge in the overall view of things. That’s why I went back to my original field, auto pistol, and I am not sure I know much about it, either!

I think all your pictures you submit are interesting.


I second what John said! My interest level in this area is high, and I always end up finding errors in my collection database when I read your postings on Cal .30 LR and 7.62 NATO. Keep the posts coming if you have the time and desire!


Wish I could help you out here, Ray. If there’s a contest for knowing the least about a topic, I’d win this one. Are these the “transition” cartridges to the .308/7.62 X 51?



Sorry to have missed your thread earlier. Been out of commission for a bit. Had I been able to, I would have pestered you for more info (as I usually do) as I would very much like to hear all you have to share on this as well as the T65E5. Is that a steel core too?




Thanks for the sympathy responses. ;)

Yes Mr. Rick, the Cal .30 Light Rifle cartridges are the experimentals and prototypes leading to the adoption of the 7.62mm NATO in 1954.

Mr. Dave, I will be posting a box photo and description of the mysterious FAT65E5. But not until next week. The bride and I are off to Nevada for the weekend to celebrate October. Any excuse to get out of Dodge.

Mr. Meketa


I thought you lived in Show Low.


Three additional boxes for this series

Note increase in powder charge from lot FA X30-1844 (and FX X30-1844A) to FA X30-1844B7 and FA X30-1844B9. Also the variation in “accuracy” values between the latter two lots.

Unfortunately, the boxes are empty so I can’t give specific cartridge information.