Cartoucherie Belge 9mmP and 7.65mmP


#1

I recently picked up a box of CB headstamped 7.65mm Parabellum cartridges. This is the first CB box I have seen that is even close to 9mmP. I have been adding to my collection 7.65 P boxes that supplement my 9mmP box collection and this one was a nice addition.

I was surprised that the box label is in English implying a British or Commenwealth or US market.

Can anyone provide an approximate date for this box based on the box style. On the back it has two smudges that could be “11” or “14” or simply smudges with no meaning.

Has anyone other CB boxes that can give us more insight into the box styles they used?

I am particularly interested if anyone has seen a CB box for 9mmP. I would greatly appreciate a copy of such a box.

I was also surprised by the headstamp on the rounds in this box (right below). The “CB” appears identical to the “CB” on the 9mm headstamp at center. In fact the 9mm headstamp could have been produced using the 7.65 bunter with the caliber removed. The 9mm illustrated center below is only known (to me) with a RN CN bullet.

The only other CB 9mm headstamp known is the one at left, dated 1924, with a completely different letter style. This round is known with both RN and Truncated CN bullets. Both loads are listed in a CB catalog I have a copy of which was printed no earlier than 1926 (it quotes competition results from 1921 through 1925). The 7.65mm Parabellum cartridge is not shown in this catalog.

Based on this information, my guess is that the center headstamp above and the 7.65mm headstamp and box date from the period 1920 to 1923. This seems to be consistent with the info from a previous thread quoted below which has an excellent rundown on CB production. As discussed in this thread, I suspect the C B 24 cases, and perhaps cartridges were produced by FN. Given the letter style, I suspect the CB headstamp center above and the 7.65mm cases or cartridges were perhaps produced by SFM.

Would appreciate any comments and images of other CB boxes.

Cheers,
Lew

PS: Does anyone have a SFM autopistol box from the early 1920s or a 7.65P cartidge for comparison?

[quote]I know there was two Cartoucherie Belge:

  • first one was at the beginning (in 1896) located in Cureghem les Bruxelles. Then it was moved to Liege in 1898. And in 1899 it became a part of Cartoucheries Russo-Belge (CRB), and, I think, continue to use it’s headstamp CB. Then CRB disappeared in 1914 in Belgium

  • new Cartoucherie Belge was founded in March 1920 in Liège, with the help of FN and Eley. It was taken over by FN in 1929 -----treshkin-http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11767&start=0

    "In 1884 there was established a “Manufacture Nationale Belge” at Cureghem/Bruxelles, Rue Prévinaire. The company changed to “Societé Anonyme Cartoucherie Belge” in 1888 with the same address. In 1898 they moved to Liège, 619 Rue St. Leonard. On 27.05.1899 (JLM - 27 May 1899) they became “Cartoucherie Russo-Belge” and in 1900 they took over “S.
    A. Anderlecht” (S.A. Pour La Fabrication Des Cartouches Et Des Projectiles) the former Charles Fusnot till 1882. Their plant in Russia was situated in a suburb of Moskau (A fragment of a record of 1899 contains information about options to buy the Russian companies of Torbeck or Inarof). This company lasted until 1914 in Belgium and in Russia until 1917 when it was confiscated. A new “Societé Anonyme Cartoucherie Belge” started in March 1920 in Liège, 615 Rue St. Leonard, with the help of FN and Eley Brothers. It was taken over by FN in 1919.

"The first Cartoucherie Belge, and probably the CRB too, were run with funds from SFM. They were general agents of SFM for Belgium, Netherlands and Russia. They use several trade-marks of SFM, even a headstamp “S.F.M. Bruxelles.” ----John Moss quoting Manfred Beutter from ECRA CF 482-ref Forum thread above
[/quote]


#2

Looks like nobody has a Cartoucherie Belge box to share on the Forum.

Separate from the Forum I have received a box image that simply says:

             20

CARTRIDGES cal. 7.63
MADE IN BELGIUM

and on the side is a red seal holding the cloth pull tab in place that looks similar to the old DWM seal that simply says “CB” in large letters. The cartridges have a CB headstamp.

Are there any other CB boxes out there???

Cheers,
Lew


#3

Lew, great box! I’m not able to give a precise date, but the “CB” monogram enclosed in a hexagon was registered as a trademark in 1921. Regards, Fede.


#4

Great info!!! Thanks…

This ties in with the C B being the earlier headstamp since it occurs on 7.65 Luger which was not listed in the later catalog.

The box has a vaguely SFM look to it, but collecting 9mmP I have no SFM boxes from the 1920s for comparison, much less commercial boxes. Perhaps someone has some in other calibers and could post images.

Cheers,
Lew


#5

One last attempt.

If nobody has a box or cartridge or information relevant to this subject, it is probably best if I take this off-line for further research.

Lew


#6

I looked but nothing by CB, for whatever that is worth.
rounds yes, but no boxes.