Cartridge for 0,276" Garand rifle (British Drawing)


#1

Happy collecting, Peter

Edited to correct title.


#2

Please specify that this is the .276 Pedersen cartridge, as made for the .276 Pedersen Rifle and for the Pre-1935 Garand.

Al;so, the Primer Pocket/Primer cup specs seem “out”( even allowing for tolerances" )at (sic) .212", whereas the normal “Large Rifle” (FA70) Primer is .210-211, at most, for a .209 Pocket. (somebody please correct me If I am wrong…

Regards,
Doc AV


#3

You are correct Doc AV. That is an odd designation considering that most of the tests of the .276 Pedersen cartridge in the Garand took place before 1930 and in early 1932 all work on the Garand rifle in .276 caliber was completely stopped.

At least that was the sequence of events here in the USA. Maybe GB had different ideas?

And, maybe GB had the intention of using a larger diameter primer, or they relied on the crimp to hold it in place?


#4

Found this Pic. in the WWW.

Do we speak about this rifle?


#5

Dutch

That appears to be a standard Rifle, Cal .30 M1 (Garand) as adopted in 1936. The .276 Garand and the prototypes of the M1 looked basically the same but operated on a slightly different principle.

Ray


#6

The rifle was originally developed by John Garand for the .276 caliber, but for various economic, logistical, and political reasons, it was decided by the US Army (Gen. Douglas MacArthur) that the existing U. S. .30 cartridge (as used during WWI in the 1903 Springfield and 1917 US Enfield rifles) would be used instead. The .276 cartridge was never officially adopted as a caliber for any U. S. rifle.


#7

Can anybody explain why the Germans made/planned a copy of the .276 cartridge using 7.92x57 cases (and keeping the head diameter) and loaded them with reformed and adapted 7x57 projectiles?


#8

There were two head sizes in the .276 cartridge; the smaller (shown) is the commoner one, but there is also a version with a .470 in. (or so) rim diameter. It was my impression that the .447 in. rim version was used in the Pedersen rifles and the larger version in the Garand experimentals. Were Garands actually made to use both versions of this cartridge? Jack


#9

The early tests in the Garand were made with the smaller head size and larger extractor groove. A later case with extractor groove and rim diameter similar to the Cal .30 cartridge (plus a longer case length) was made and tested but by then the project was pretty much doomed.


#10

Ray: I have a version with a narrow cannelure and .30 in.-size rim but otherwise similar to the usual small head type, including length. For whatever that might be worth. Jack


#11

Jack - I don’t collect the Pedersen cartridges but I understand that those T2 cartridges and/or cases are uncommon. Maybe even rare? Likewise the T2E2 which had a wider extractor groove.

Ray


#12

Anybody with a line up image of these .276 variants? Guess most of us are not really aware of all the development stages.


#13

I don’t have the variants but here is a 10-shot Garand clip for the 276 cartridge.

There were three variations of the final ball cartridges. One normal and two different lubricated ones.


#14

Flying Dutchman, Are you sure that is the clip for the Garand. It looks much like the single clip we had along with 30 or more Pedersen rifles and carbines. We got all the Vickers-made Pedersen rifles that were not used in the Trials - ie: excellent to mint specimens, at the San Francisco Gun Exchange. This was in the early 1960s, as they were already at the store when I went to work there c. 1964. We only had one clip, and that came from Martin B. Retting, in Culver City, California, who got the rifles actually used in the British trials. Not in the condition of ours, but he got all the remaining clips! I know that the British clip and the American clip for the Pedersen were different from each other, but that is all I remember about them. I don’t know anything about the clip for the Pedersen-caliber Garand, so my question is really a request for verification, not a challenge to the identification of the clip shown.

By the way, from Franford Arsenal alone, HWS Vol. I (Revised) shows Nine different case types for the .276 Pedersen. Incredible.


#15

John - You are correct. The photo is the 10-round Pedersen enbloc clip. Like you, I don’t know what type of clip or magazine Garand used in his .276 rifle. His first design used a detatchable magazine much like the later M14, and his final design used the familiar 8-round enbloc clip.

After the US Army turned down Pedersen’s rifle, he travelled to GB to try and sell it to them. There were rifles and ammunition produced in GB so there may be many more variants than the nine that HWS covers. Maybe the one first pictured in this thread is one of them, but it still remains a mystery.


#16

I should have sticked to 30-06 . . . . . . . . .


#17

Ray: I spent last night reading the .276 section in Hackley et al., v. 1 carefully (pretty carefully, at any rate) and discovered that the .276 cartridge that was identical to the usual round except for being semirimmed had no known formal identification or drawing number and was intended for use in an experimental aircraft Browning MG and a (presumably) aircraft Lewis. Keeping the .276 cartridges straight is not child’s play. Jack


#18

Jack, John, Rene,

I asked about the clip on a shooting forum and two guys (so far) said the 10-round enbloc Pedersen was used in both rifles. So, Rene, you are right! Again.

It looks like collecting the .276 cartridges is a wide open field.

Ray


#19

Here is the clip used in the Vickers-Pedersen, the British type could be used either way round but the US type would only fit into the magazine one way, a fault rectified in the Garand. This picture is from the manual issued whilst the Pedersen rifle was undergoing trials in the UK.

Here is a picture showing the various types of clips used in the different Garand rifles … if anyone has spares of any of these I can offer them a good home!

Lastly, here’s a picture of Mr Garand with a very early self-loading rifle. Interesting to note that the cartridges on the table before him are in ordinary clips

Happy collecting, Peter

Edited once; grievously faulty prose


#20

[quote=“RayMeketa”]Dutch

That appears to be a standard Rifle, Cal .30 M1 (Garand) as adopted in 1936. The .276 Garand and the prototypes of the M1 looked basically the same but operated on a slightly different principle.

Ray[/quote]

Sorry Ray, forgot the second picture.

I had hoped Fede could say something about this rifle.