Cartridge from SFM Reference Collection?


#1

Greetings,

A number of years ago i got this new primed empty from a Buttweiller auction. It was reported to be from the SFM Reference collection. Along with the cartridge came an old green label and on the back of this label was a white sticker with “ZX09” printed on it.

Dimensions are:
Rim: 15.64mm (0.6125")
Head: 13.15mm (0.5170")
Case Mouth: 12.05mm (0.4760")
Case length: 35.15mm (1.3820")

wender%20headwerder%20labelWerder%20babel%20back

Referencing “Cartridges Cases” by Andresen, Andresen and Stromstad they appear to identify it as a 11.5 Werder Carbine/“Lightning” Pistol.

What was the “Lightning Pistol”?
Was this case manufactured by SFM or was it competitors reference sample?

Thanks

Paul


#2

If I may ask, what did Buttweiller call it, and which auction was it in.
Not that I know much about this interesting stuff, but I would like to know too.
Thanks,
Dan


#3

The first German state addopting a rifle for a metallic cartridge was Bavaria with the M/69 rifle, preceding Prussia and its Mauser M/71 by two years. Designer was engineer Johann Ludwig Werder, who also designed a single loading pistol M/69 based on the same mechanism. “Blitz” (lightning) would today be called a marketing buzzword, refering to the speed compared to other weapons of the time.
The M/69 carbine and the pistol fired the same cartridge. Alas, I have no dimensions.


#4

This case was produced by H.Utendoerffer (as the Utendoerffer packet indicates - it uses the Utendoerffer notation of “B. a”) and Utendoerffer was the first to produce this case. It uses the light construction (folded head) that Heinrich Utendoerffer perfected in 1869 for the longer 11.5x50Rmm Werder Rifle case. “B” stands for “Bavaria” and “a” is the first of the necked type cases by Utendoerffer (the ‘Werder’ type neck). This notation is the equivalent of the Lorenz (later DWM) case numbers as it uniquely identifies all of the Utendoerffer casetypes.

Also known as the 11m/m Werder Pistol, this was also produced by Gevelot (maybe from the sample case you have ?) as did the Munich Arsenal. From 1875 Utendoerffer produced Solid cases (the “MB” type case meaning “Massive Bavarian”) and these were used mainly for sporting purposes - later also produced by B.Stahl, Lorenz and Egestorff.

I have heard the “Lightning” reference before but haven’t any details of that.


#5

Greetings

JPeelen and WBD thanks for the quick reply. So it’s actually an Utendoerffer packet label not an SFM Reference tag.

Thanks again

Paul


#6

Dan,

It must have been 25 or 30 years ago i purchased it. I’m not sure what catalog it was from. I’m not even sure why i bought it since it doesn’t really fit into my collecting interests. If i remember right it was listed as a 11x35mm but also mentioned the Werder connection. I’ll have to dig through my old auction catalogs.

Paul