Cartridge Identification


#1

I have an old cartridge that I am trying to id. It is about 5" long and about 1" in diameter. There is an old tag that says 1" French Army 1875. Not sure if that is correct. The head stamp has 3 stars, a circled P , MB and then a small star. There are marks also on the primer that look like ML, 39, L1. Any help would be appriciated. As I am new to this site I have not been able to figure out how to post photos.
[/img]


#2

Road King,

From the markings, I believe that your case is Italian, and for a 25.4mm flare cartridge.  The primer is dated 1939.  Perhaps one of the flare cartridge specialists can add more information.

Jim


#3

Road king

If it is italian I would like to see it.Send me your pictures,I will post them for you


#4

Road King–Welcome to our Forum.

Go to the below location for instructions on how to post images on the Forum. If you have any problems, please email me (click on “email” below) for additional help

iaaforum.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=63


#5

I have posted a couple of pictures in the following link. I hope this works. Thanks for the help.


#6

ADMIN: I edited your post to make the images appear.

Road King–You selected the wrong item in PhotoBucket. Next time select the BOTTOM choice (IMG code) under your image. Then come back to the Forum and use CTRL-V to insert your image in the Forum. You need to do this for each individual picture. Also, use “Preview” to check to see if everything is working before selecting “Submit”. Emai me if you still have a problem by clicking on “Email” below.


#7

Road King,

Thanks for posting the photos.  I didn't understand from your initial posting that it's a complete cartridge, not just an empty case.  The headstamp is very unusual, but based on the primer and the "MB" marking, there's no doubt that it's Italian.  Unfortunately none of my references show an Italian cartridge of this caliber with the same dimensions as yours.  

Jim


#8

The case should be a 1inch Nordenfeld and the stars reloading marks. So far I have only seen steel projectiles with driving bands. Might this be an early one?


#9

[quote=“Road King”]I have an old cartridge that I am trying to id. It is about 5" long and about 1" in diameter. There is an old tag that says 1" French Army 1875. Not sure if that is correct. The head stamp has 3 stars, a circled P , MB and then a small star. There are marks also on the primer that look like ML, 39, L1. Any help would be appriciated. As I am new to this site I have not been able to figure out how to post photos.
[/img][/quote]

What isthe case length ? 95 mm ?


#10

[quote=“jean-pierre”][quote=“Road King”]I have an old cartridge that I am trying to id. It is about 5" long and about 1" in diameter. There is an old tag that says 1" French Army 1875. Not sure if that is correct. The head stamp has 3 stars, a circled P , MB and then a small star. There are marks also on the primer that look like ML, 39, L1. Any help would be appriciated. As I am new to this site I have not been able to figure out how to post photos.
[/img][/quote]

What isthe case length ? 95 mm ?[/quote]

Yes I believe it is. I don’t have it with me right now but did measure it remember it was about 95mm.


#11

With a lead projectile it is most likely to be a 1" Aiming Rifle. This used the same case as the 1" Nordenfelt and the Aiming Rifles were sold by Vickers and/or Elswick Ordnance to many countries.

Regards
TonyE


#12

There are some similar cases shown here. Like EOD, I believed it was a 1" Aiming rifle round (identical case dimensions to Nordenfelt). But it turned out it that it was an Italian flare cartridge as Jean-Pierre showed some loaded ones.

http://iaaforum.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=3267

In conclusion, this case has been fired, so looks like someone found a fired Italian flare case and a fired 1" Aiming rifle bullet and thought “hey it fits!”

EDITED AS I FORGOT TO INCLUDE LINK


#13

[quote=“Falcon”]There are some siiar cases shown here. Like EOD, I believed it was a 1" Aiming rifle round (identical case dimensions to Nordenfelt). But it turned out it that it was an Italian flare cartridge as Jean-Pierre showed some loaded ones.

In conclusion, this case has been fired, so looks like someone found a fired Italian flare case and a fired 1" Aiming rifle bullet and thought “hey it fits!”[/quote]

Hi Falcon;
it is excatly what I wanted to say to Road King.
I used to have some loaded Italian flares with this kind of hstp
jp


#14

[quote=“jean-pierre”][quote=“Falcon”]There are some siiar cases shown here. Like EOD, I believed it was a 1" Aiming rifle round (identical case dimensions to Nordenfelt). But it turned out it that it was an Italian flare cartridge as Jean-Pierre showed some loaded ones.

In conclusion, this case has been fired, so looks like someone found a fired Italian flare case and a fired 1" Aiming rifle bullet and thought “hey it fits!”[/quote]

Hi Falcon;
it is excatly what I wanted to say to Road King.
I used to have some loaded Italian flares with this kind of hstp
jp[/quote]

Thanks for all the help. The bullet is is seated in the shell and there seems to be powder in the shell, so I assume it’s loaded. I am not sure I know what an Aiming Rifle is or what it was used for.
Would this bullet have any value?


#15

Road King, an aiming rifle is a subcaliber barrel which is inserted into a large caliber gun or mounted on top of it to save costs while practice shooting.

If your cartridge is an original (what may very well be) then you have a very good item.


#16

So the “Italian flare” shown in the first post in the thread I linked to could in fact be a 1" Aiming Rifle case as it has the same case dimesions.

Perhaps the same primers were used for flares also.

In the photo of Road King’s round, I cannot tell if the bullet shows rifling marks or not, but likely not if it has powder.

So it seems that Italy DID make 1" Aiming Rifle rounds after all.


#17

[quote=“Falcon”]So the “Italian flare” shown in the first post in the thread I linked to could in fact be a 1" Aiming Rifle case as it has the same case dimesions.

Perhaps the same primers were used for flares also.

In the photo of Road King’s round, I cannot tell if the bullet shows rifling marks or not, but likely not if it has powder.

So it seems that Italy DID make 1" Aiming Rifle rounds after all.[/quote]

The bullet has no rifling and is seated solidly. I am convinced that it is a loaded round. This round was in a large collection of assorted ammo that purchased a few years ago. The collection had a log with entries from starting in the '30s and the last entry in the late '50s. There some very interesting pcs and I may have more questions as i continue to research.
RK


#18

Hi,

  1. Is the bullet seated by crimps or dots?
  2. Have you found documentation about an "1 French Army 1875"ctge?
    jp

#19

[quote=“jean-pierre”]Hi,

  1. Is the bullet seated by crimps or dots?
  2. Have you found documentation about an "1 French Army 1875"ctge?
    jp[/quote]

The bullet appears to be crimped and no I have not found anything on the 1875 French Army Cartridge. I was away and did not have the cartridge when I gave the case length as 95 mm I was incorrect it is 116mm


#20

[quote=“Road King”][quote=“jean-pierre”]Hi,

  1. Is the bullet seated by crimps or dots?
  2. Have you found documentation about an "1 French Army 1875"ctge?
    jp[/quote]

The bullet appears to be crimped and no I have not found anything on the 1875 French Army Cartridge. I was away and did not have the cartridge when I gave the case length as 95 mm I was incorrect it is 116mm[/quote]

Road King, is that the measured case length?