Cartridges identification


#1


Can anyone tell me anything about these cartridges

  1. 300 SAVAGE, I think first tests of 7.62 Pre NATO on 300 SAV case (1944).
  2. 300 SAVAGE, tests of 7.62 Pre NATO blank ?
  3. 7.62x51, no extractor groove, electric primer. Ballistic test ? Spotter ?
    4 & 5) 7.62x51 ?

Thanks
Michel


#2

Michel

#1 appears to be one of the earliest pre-T65 cartridges using the 300 Savage case and an M2 AP bullet. However, the bullet appears to be seated deeper than I would expect to see. Can you measure the overall length.

At first glance #2 appears to be a pre-T65 grenade cartridge but I have doubts that it is. (I’m not sure that there was such a cartridge) The “bullet” part is usually rose crimped. Is yours a new unloaded case? If not, how is the case mouth closed?

Is it one piece? It could be a later flare cartridge.

I know nothing about the other three cartridges.

Ray


#3

Michel & Ray–The second one is a Marsh Coulter Co., Tecumseh, Michigan Flare for hunters to use in an emergency. They were made from about 1960 to the mid-1970’s in lots of calibers. I would guess your brass tube has a red cork-like plug inn the end,right


#4

[quote=“Ray Meketa”]Michel

#1 appears to be one of the earliest pre-T65 cartridges using the 300 Savage case and an M2 AP bullet. However, the bullet appears to be seated deeper than I would expect to see. Can you measure the overall length.

At first glance #2 appears to be a pre-T65 grenade cartridge but I have doubts that it is. (I’m not sure that there was such a cartridge) The “bullet” part is usually rose crimped. Is yours a new unloaded case? If not, how is the case mouth closed?

Is it one piece? It could be a later flare cartridge.

I know nothing about the other three cartridges.

Ray[/quote]
The overall length of cartridge #1 is 2.733" (69.40mm).
On the HWS book, a specimen cartridge is shown with a length of 2.700" but headstamped SUPER-X 300 SAV. and with a different AP projectile (knurled cannelure)

Another picture to the #2


#5

michel

I think we’ve determined that cartridge #2 is a later date flare cartridge.

The pre-T65 cartridges can be found with both of the Winchester headstamps as well as the REM-UMC headstamp. Most with the AP bullet use the 165 grain M2 AP bullet with the cannalure. The later AP bullet with the one smooth crimping groove is very definitely uncommon for the early cartridges. (I’m not even positive that the later bullet was available in 1945.)

Most that I have seen are loaded to approximately 2.785" and the crimp groove is exposed. So yours is a little short. But that does not mean that it is incorrect, only that it is not normally seen that way.

You have to examine everything very closely. Does it have a powder charge? The extractor goove looks shiney in your photograph. Is it just light reflection or has it been messed with? Is the primer appropriate for a SUPER SPEED case? Could it be one of those flare cartridge cases in which somebody has seated an AP bullet? Be suspicious of everything. These cartridges are easily faked.

If you are satisfied that everything is OK and that the person you got it from is honest and can verify it’s provenance, then you may have a legitimate early pre-T65 cartridge.

Beyond that, I can’t be of much help.

Good Luck

Ray


#6

Michel–I am 100% postive this is a flare as I said in the post above. It has nothing to do with the military at all. It is strickly for hunters.


#7

Ron & michel

I agree. I could not tell from the first photograph if it was one piece or had the flare tube. The second photo erased all doubts.

Ray


#8

Ray & Ron, thanks for the 2 identifications.

The first looks authentic, I think I have a true early pre-T65.

Michel


#9

Michel

I revised my post several times as I thought of additional items of concern. Please re-read it before deciding.

Ray


#10

[quote=“Ray Meketa”]Michel

I revised my post several times as I thought of additional items of concern. Please re-read it before deciding.

Ray[/quote]
It is not easy.

The cartridge does not appear to be a fake (this is my feeling) and I have the same AP bullet on a 30-06 headstamped LC44

Hard to be absolutely sure !
Michel


#11

Michel

Maybe Chris P is reading this and can add his comments. (You’ll never get a divorce from the 30-06 Chris ;)

That bullet without the cannelure seems to be common to LC cartridges. But I was always under the impression that the early pre-T65 cartridges were assembled with commercial cases and FA bullets.

There is a lot that we still do not know about these cartridges. Maybe Vol 3 of HWS will answer some of the questions.

In the meantime, be wary.

Ray


#12

Round #3 is the rimless/grooveless match with electric primer (USA). I’m not sure why this round has a red tip (I’ve never seen one before and it doesn’t make any sense as the projectile is solid).

Rounds # 4 & 5 are experimental blanks by, I beleive, AAI (Aircraft Armaments, Incorporated). #5 is great with the compressed powder charge.

Paul


#13

[quote=“Paul Smith”]Round #3 is the rimless/grooveless match with electric primer (USA). I’m not sure why this round has a red tip (I’ve never seen one before and it doesn’t make any sense as the projectile is solid).

Rounds # 4 & 5 are experimental blanks by, I beleive, AAI (Aircraft Armaments, Incorporated). #5 is great with the compressed powder charge.

Paul[/quote]
Thank for the info Paul