Caseless .22

Just acquired these

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I have two of the 1968-vintage Daisy V/L rifles (Presentation and Standard Grade), they shoot well - even with original vintage ammo. My Presentation Grade rifle came with all the original Daisy paperwork, registration card, and manual. Of key interest to me - Daisy did NOT refer to the ammunition as “ammunition”, “cartridges”, or “bullets”. They called them “missiles”. No mention of “gunpowder” - it is called “propellent”. All, in a failed effort, to avoid entanglement with the US Government. Daisy was licensed to manufacture “air guns”, not firearms. The Government ordered production of the V/L rifles halted unless Daisy obtained the correct type of Federal Firearms License - which for reasons I don’t understand - they refused. From my research, there is a lot of confusion and disagreement over how many V/L rifles Daisy sold in the less than 2 years they were available. Some sources claim over 30,000, others state in the 2~3,500 range.



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cddiver
That box you found exists in several different printing variations and rounds are also known in inert/dummy variations.

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Thank you for that information…now you have given me more rounds to search for

As I understand, 1960’s was a golden era for US gun manufacturers, including .22 rifle models, even made in Canada. So why was V/L rifle marketed at the time when conventional .22 market was flourishing? I do not own this rifle, so maybe that’s why I don’t understand the need to invent a better wheel.

Daisy’s marketing literature paints the V/L system as the “first major firearms/ammunition revolution since the self-contained cartridge invention”. Honestly, a viable low-cost caseless ammunition is pretty revolutionary - especially given the fact we still have nothing better nearly 50 years later. No primer (with resulting heavy metals & corrosive properties) and no case to extract/eject. While the V/L wasn’t perfection - it was a major innovation that could (in my opinion) have be further developed and refined, versus being shelved.

I don’t know how the cost of Daisy’s V/L rifles and “missiles” compared to standard .22 RF rifles and ammo in 1968. My guess is at least the V/L ammo cost more… I remember buying .22 LR at our local hardware store for 50-cents a box of 50 when I was a kid in the '60s.

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V/L wasn’t the only company exploring this, S&W also made several .22 caseless rounds (below V/L on left & S&W the 3 on right) about the same time, but never offered them to the public. For all I know they might have only been used with a test gun.
The S&W 9mm caseless was also from this time & I believe that made it past the developmental stage & was offered for sale to the military / police markets.

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Were the “cartridges” vulnerable to moisture or damage? As far as I know that is a problem with caseless ammunition that has never been fully overcome.

Here is a box picture of a round I got years ago. Any info welcome.


Thanks, Dan

Made for the S&W Dan. Looks like the one on the extreme right of my photo.

Falcon, I can’t really answer that, but they are somehow treated to be “resistant”.

The orange / pink based V/L’s in my photo are dummies.

Thanks Pete,
Do you know if the 9mm was made in Brazil also?
Dan

I believe it was, but I’ve not seen a box of those.
It can also be found with differene colors on the powder and primer. The projectile has a post at the base and that acts to secure the charge to the bullet.

The last versions of the HK G11 (G11K2) “fixed” the issues with caseless ammunition by using a high-temperature ignition propellant and a hard lacquer protecting it. Overheating issues were overcome and there were, to my knowledge, no issues in testing with it.

However as things went with the Wall falling and West-Germany suddenly having to take care of the DDR, the project fell apart along with the HK G41, and in need of a new mass produced rifle, HK went for the G36 instead.

Ole

But following this all of a sudden caseless weapons systems had appeared in a country (which evaluated the G11 and did so under the condition only if all regarding technology would be provided - of course it was) which ceased development long ago because they could not solve the problems.
Odd? No! :-)

Yes the H&K G11 was the only system I’m aware of that ever made it close to being accepted by anyone’s military / police. & who knows, in 5 years if those will start to destroy themselves like a number of others are now doing.
I believe AAI was working on a caseless round for a belt fed weapon as recently as 2 to 5 years ago, but as I understand that was shelved too.

Pete, if I got it right the G11 was adopted already.

The formal approval of adoption (EinfĂĽhrungsgenehmigung) was issued on 08 March 1992.
On 26 Jun 1993 the newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine reported that the G11 would not be adopted.

EOD & Peelen
Thanks for the corrections.
Short lived only about 14 months. Was any of it ever issued to the troops? Does anyone have a photo of an issued clip holder / container with a label? All I have, which is ca. 1977 but could that be right?

Retail price in 1970 was $39.95, when an AR-7 costed $49.95 and a Browning $97.50. Presentation model costed $125.00 and included a brick of 1,000 rounds.

Regards,

Fede


Pictures are reversed.

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Fede - THANK YOU for that catalog clipping! I’m printing this and adding it to my V/L rifle case. Actually - the rifle photos are correct. If you look at my two rifles in the factory presentation case (several posts above), the walnut stock rifle is at the top, the plastic stock with “true wood finish” is below.

Thanks again, R.J.