Chinese 7.62 x 51 with RG 60 L2A2 headstamp?

One point I did not realize before…the original FALs and the definitive Israeli FAL all had strippercl9ip guides built into the Top cover, fro stripping straight into the Magazine ON THE RIFLE…The ABC (Inch) and later metric designs had NO stripperclip guides on the top cover, and relied on a stripper sleeve to go over the magazine for loading away from the Rifle.

The reference to “Springfield” is to the original US M1903 clip which was just a variation (end closure tabs) of the Normal Mauser Export(Wide) Clip; This would have been a normal progression in the US Designs (of the M14).

I wonder if the T-48 (made by H&R under FN Licence for Trials in USA) which had the top cover clip guide) was set up for Wide clips or the “two stop” clips?

The Israeli clip is nice… I would say definitely a “M98” type narrow clip.

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.

Dave
Your Israeli 7.92/7.62 clip appears to be made of brass. All of mine are parkerized steel. Here are a variety of dates.
Phil

[quote=“NZ L1A1 Collector”][quote=“DocAV”]Just an observation on the “one stop” (definitive Nato clip for 7,62x51) and the earlier “two-stop” (Mauser rifle style clip).
It occurred to me that whilst the developmental stages of the stripper clip( and FN-FAL rifles etc) to use 7,62 ammo were predicated on the Mauser style clip and the shallow clip guide slots in the receiver, the “Mark 2” clips could also be used with Converted Bolt action rifles (ie, Mausers) which were already set up for a two stop clip…The width of the clip seems to be of importance as well, since the Mauser clip comes in two widths, the export size( for 7mm, 7,65mm and .30/06–mostly Latin American) and the narrow size, for 7,9mm (virtually restricted to German M98 rifles).
FN would have been looking at the latin American markets, already floodend with Wide cliped Mausers in various calibres, and some did convert Mausers into Police and training rifles in 7,62, whilst adopting the FAL designs in the 1950s…The two stop clip works very well here, although the later single stop design does work, albeit a bit stickily, in most Mausers as well.

The major user of “Converted” Mausers was Israel, and this could have been an original design facilitation for the IDF…they both adopted the FAL, and had the spare barrels for the Mauser 7,62 originally supplied by FN, (later made in Israel), but as the Israeli Mausers were by and large, originally German/Czech etc 7,9mm Mausers, with the narrow clip, there rests a problem…which clip did Israel use in its “clipped” 7,62 Ammo…

Any Israeli(Hebrew) marked clips out there? measurements please?

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.[/quote]

You could well be right about your theory of the two-stop design so it could be used in Mauser type rifles (excluding the 7.92 models). I’ve just tried a variety of Mauser clips in a charger loading top cover for a FAL and they all fit (except K98 type).

The design was of British origin, dating from 1955 and was originally called " CHARGER X2E1 ", there was also a comment in the title stating " TO HOLD 5 ROUNDS; SPRINGFIELD TYPE " The title was changed in 1956 to " CHARGER, 7.62MM AMMUNITION, Mk2 ".

The US clip was finalised in Jan 1958 and going by the design is based on the Canadian charger.

I’m waiting on an Israeli 7.92/7.62 marked clip at the moment, I would say it’s a standard K98 type clip that is duel marked and won’t fit any NATO sized stripper clip grooves.[/quote]

The two-stop, UK Mark 2 charger (X2E1) followed on from the X1E1 (later called the “Charger 7.62mm Ammunition, Mk1, to hold 5 rounds, horse-shoe type”. Which was first introduced in 1954 for the FAL trials rifles. The rear profile of this charger matches the later marks which fitted the same charger guides on the rifle. There was also a 10 round horseshoe charger in both 7.62mm and 7.92x57mm but none I have seen are marked and I don’t know what rifle they were used with.

gravelbelly

[quote=“DocAV”]One point I did not realize before…the original FALs and the definitive Israeli FAL all had strippercl9ip guides built into the Top cover, fro stripping straight into the Magazine ON THE RIFLE…The ABC (Inch) and later metric designs had NO stripperclip guides on the top cover, and relied on a stripper sleeve to go over the magazine for loading away from the Rifle.

The reference to “Springfield” is to the original US M1903 clip which was just a variation (end closure tabs) of the Normal Mauser Export(Wide) Clip; This would have been a normal progression in the US Designs (of the M14).

I wonder if the T-48 (made by H&R under FN Licence for Trials in USA) which had the top cover clip guide) was set up for Wide clips or the “two stop” clips?

The Israeli clip is nice… I would say definitely a “M98” type narrow clip.

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.[/quote]

I believe that the T48 rifle was used with the enclosed Kunz patent charger for trials in the US. This charger is a magnificent example of over-engineering complexity.

gravelbelly

[quote=“DocAV”]One point I did not realize before…the original FALs and the definitive Israeli FAL all had strippercl9ip guides built into the Top cover, fro stripping straight into the Magazine ON THE RIFLE…The ABC (Inch) and later metric designs had NO stripperclip guides on the top cover, and relied on a stripper sleeve to go over the magazine for loading away from the Rifle.

The reference to “Springfield” is to the original US M1903 clip which was just a variation (end closure tabs) of the Normal Mauser Export(Wide) Clip; This would have been a normal progression in the US Designs (of the M14).

I wonder if the T-48 (made by H&R under FN Licence for Trials in USA) which had the top cover clip guide) was set up for Wide clips or the “two stop” clips?

The Israeli clip is nice… I would say definitely a “M98” type narrow clip.

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.[/quote]

Stripper clip loading was always a customer option, even later in FAL production. In 1954 the majority of rifles sold were stripper clip loading, even the T48 (at least 4 variations of it FN ver1, FN ver2, H&R, Hi Standard) were stripper clip loading to a spec that ended up being the NATO spec.

Originally the British FAL trials rifles (X8E1) were stripper clip loading, the Canadian trials rifles (EX1) weren’t. Then when they finalised rifle production the Canadians went as standard with stripper clip loading covers (C1) and the British (L1A1) and Australian’s (L1A1) didn’t.

The stops have a direct relation to whether the clip can be used on the rifle or not. When using a Magazine Charging Adaptor the stops don’t matter as the ‘stop’ is the bottom edge of the clip itself.

[quote=“gravelbelly”]There was also a 10 round horseshoe charger in both 7.62mm and 7.92x57mm but none I have seen are marked and I don’t know what rifle they were used with.

gravelbelly[/quote]

Are you sure the 7.92x57 version isn’t in fact for the 7.62x63? There are known 10 round versions for the US 30.06 for use with the SAFN49 rifles.

There is also another version for 10 rounds that is possibly for the 7.62x63 or maybe it is for 7.92x57, the photo doesn’t detail the calibre. Then of course there are the ones for 7.62x51 which are designed for the FAL rifles and most notable seen on the American T48 rifles. They are unique and can only be used on the early FAL trials rifles (circa 1954).

To get this discussion back on track I found 2 samples of the Chinese false coded L2A2 at the local gun-show.

In the display case they almost looked like proof rounds beside standard brass cases.

There is a green laquered ring in the extractor groove where the copper washing doesn’t appear for some reason.