Chinese and Cambodgian ctges


#1
  1. What are the rare Chinese ctges to find nowadays ?
    5.8 x 21 ?
    5.8 x 42 ?
    Others ?
  2. And what about Cambodgia ?
    9 para ?
    7.62 AK ?
    Thanks
    JP

#2

Forum thread concerning 9x19mm from Cambodia:

Missing photos from the above listed thread (Cambodian headstamp shown in photo #3)-

c4529a2cbe3a516fda09577a2fcc40a5508c0f8f_1_690x670

1b4212da7aa3d97b696a457db389bb6f49269a1e_1_690x761

8d1bd1cb0ada0988f30e95b006acea6a1951786c_1_690x635

7.65x20mm from S&B for Cambodia mentioned here:

Missing photos of S&B produced 7.65mm Long for Cambodia-

65mm Long, S&B for Cambodia, a65mm Long, S&B for Cambodia, b

Brian


#3

BD,
The top headstamp is Chinese 9mmP commercial, the second is from Yugoslavia 9mmP military and the bottom one is one of the two Cambodian 9mmP headstamps known. I will let John Moss show the other one.

Cheers,
Lew


#4

Any info on who’s machinery Cambodia was using?


#5

Lew,

Thanks, I’ve gone back and added captions to the set of three headstamp photos shown above to clarify country of origin.

Brian


#6

The machinery used at the Stung Chral ammunition factory
in Cambodia was supplied by Sellier & Bellot c. 1965. However,
the Cambodian authorities at the factory did not get it up and
running until 1969. The machinery test run was likely the cartridge
headstamped “9mmP 65”, known from only two specimens, one of
which, along with its owner, seems to have disappeared from the
cartridge collecting scene. I own the other one.

The one whose picture is shown above was from lot 1 of 1969. I
have the box for it, and I acquired it out of Cambodian thru a source
I had at the time, about half full.

I did an article on the these rounds published in the IAA Journal,
Issue number 418, March/April 2001, pages 6 and 7,
and there was some history on the rounds in a “box article” written
by Ted Carlow for the American Rifleman magazine some years ago.
It covered more than just the 9 mm Para. The calibers were 7.5 French
with the date removed, .30-06 (marked in metric 7.62 mm.) with and with
primer crimps, both dated “65” and the 9 mm.P dated 65. Mr. Carlow was
not aware of the undated 9 mm P round until I brought it to his attention.
The 7.5 x 54 mm French and the two variants of .30-06 are known from
single specimens. The 9 mm box is the only Cambodian cartridge box
of any caliber that has been reported to date, and came later to me, after
Mr. Carlow’s article had appeared. It held 32 rounds originally, is of standard
French pattern and in the French language, with cases, primers, and bullets
of Lot 1 of 69, and powder of Lot 1 of 64. The initials S.C. (Stung Chral)
come before the case lot, bullet lot, and loading lot numbers.

According to Mr. Carlow, who interviewed the former commanding officer of the
Stung Chral Army Ammunition Plant, the undated round was the only full-
production lot produced of that caliber. He had thought, until he received the
information from me, that the 65-dated round was from that lot and knew
nothing of the undated version, S.C. Lot No. 01 Série No. 6.

The factory was over-run by the Khmer Rouge in November 1970, and while
taken back by the Government troops, the factory was in such a badly damaged
state that production did not resume there.

John Moss


#7

John, great IAA article and very interesting story on the factory in Cambodia!


#8

Perhaps I didn’t explain very much.
Suppose I go to China and Cambodgia what are the ctges (only the rare ones) to bring back ?
Thanks
JP


#9

JP - When I mentioned that these Cambodian cartridges
were primarily known from one specimen only, I thought that
answered the question. Any cartridge MADE in Cambodia is
rare. I suppose if you mean any Cartridge found in Cambodia,
which, like most SE Asian countries are probably hard to get legally,
could be just about anything. It would be impossible to guess what
you might find there.

In China, when Steve Fuller visited the shooting range near Beijing,
they would not allow him to even pick up a fired case, or take an empty
cardboard box out of a garbage can, although he managed to sneak a
couple of empty boxes. Some places sell cartridges made into keyrings,
including very current Chinese military calibers, some I suppose still scarce
here, and they sell toys made out of real empty cartridge cases, but most
seem to now be pretty common, at least in the USA, if one wants to tear
apart one of the toys for the cases.

As to picking up live rounds, I don’t know if in China there are any that a
foreign visitor could acquire legally, and remove from the country. Perhaps
someone who has been to China in recent years can answer that.

John Moss

John Moss


#10

JP,
Do not touch a cartridge in Cambodia. A couple of years ago I was corresponding with a Lt Col in the Cambodian Army whose father was an Army General. he had a couple of boxes of 9x19mm made in Thailand which is what the Army apparently was using. He couldn’t even mail a fired case or the head of a case that was cut from the rest of the case. Unless he was in the military, he couldn’t posess a fired case. Good way to get locked up.

Cheers,
Lew


#11

hello Lew
I am back from Cambodia. It is a funny country.

You have plenty of shooting ranges where you can shoot whatever you want (from Tokarev to RPG). It is only a question of money.

We went to one of these shooting ranges and my friends shot AK and PKM.
One of them even shot RPG (real explosive one, not an inert one)

Because we were with an army colonel who is of one of my friend living overthere he paid 200 dollars instead of 400 $ ! It makes a lot of money anyway

Some funny detail : A colonel.(5 golden straight stripes) overthere is equivalent of a sergeant in the US army !
Indeed there is nobody (even the guy cleaning the toilets) who is less than captain (three golden straight stripes) !!

Anyway, except the fact my friends had fun shooting full auto, I was very disapointed because no chinese assault rifle (shooting the scarce chinese ctge) was available.

You can see military guys with these riffles but they are from BHQ police, meaning the elit troops protecting the Prime minister.

Another funny point is the fact in the cities the military people have AK but they don’t carry them on the shoulder or at the hand even when they are on guard. The AK are indeed hidden in black cases with a growth for the magazine !

JP


#12

JP,
Glad you got home safe. Thanks for the information. I had one data point and it sounded like a problem to have ammo.

You are right, it is a strange country.

Cheers,
Lew


#13

Hello,
I am back from Vietnam and this time I found the 5.8 x 42 Chinese ctge!
The hstp is 51 13.

Funny to find that at the flee market.
.6%20x%2042

Are they scarce now in Europe ? And if yes value please

They had also a lot of Claymore mines (very good condition , all the components except explosive) but they were a little to bite heavy to bring them back by plane.

jp


#14

What a find indeed! Very jealous. What did you pay for it, if you don’t mind me asking?

The mind boggles as to how it ended up there.


#15

Could we see an image of this headstamp? Factroy code 51 would be very unusual to see as is has not shown up for decades.


#16

you are right Alex
It is 61 13 and not 51 13
Sorry
JP


#17

hello Guin
I didn’t pay a lot I can assure you.
no idea how it arrived there.
All is possible in Vietnam, less than in Cambodge where absolutely all is possible, if you spend a little bite of money.

I was very surprised about this country I visited first 20 years ago.
They were 20 years late than France.
Now they are 10 years in advance than France (which is not very difficult to be I agree !) for bus, train, electronics, aso…
Very cheap country, perhaps a little bite more expansive than Cambodgia, but less than Thailand.
Anyway these countries are so cheap regarding France that I spend less money paying the plane ticket, hotel, restaurant, drinks and having fun during a 20 days trip than to stay in my home in France.

My next trip I am planning is an East European country which doesn’t exist!
Perhaps Alex knows it ??
I am sure I will find interesting things overthere. lol!
JP

JP


#18

Jean-Pierre,
seems you like odd places, then you go to Transdnistria in Moldova!
Spent some funny times there - but that was official (and an inofficial part when I was a kid - 5 years abducted) + 20,000 metric tons of ammo…
As a tourist no real point to go there other than seeing the last piece of the USSR. Basically 1 day is enough to check out Tiraspol. Travel is through Moldova (Chisinau) - these days the better choice I think or Ukraine (Odessa).

But close by to Vietnam once one is there Laos is always worth a visit, in particular when you go from their capital out north to the less inhabitated (spoiled by the modern society) areas.


#19

Alex you are right !! I am sure you are one of the few who knows what kind of country it is.
yes most of the trip will be in Moldovia (one week is enough I think to visit both countries) this summer.

Laos is planned too but in november.
I have a friend overthere who left France and he is making his money selling patches, stickers, aso he buys in Thailand and sells on internet. He makes not very much money for European standard (1500 $ a month) but with this amount you are the king in these countries.

My main goal (except to have fun) in all these Asian countries is to find documents relative to old french gunshops who were there during the French administration.
Unfortunately I was unsucessfull in Cambodgia because the Khmers Rouges have destroyed all the books, papers, maps even the cadastral registers !!
Vietnam was a little better but nothing exiting.

JP


#20

Sure other people know the place too but in the 3 years of work there I knew the secret paths and access routes better than 99% of the locals.
Try to do some travel south of Chisinau down to the Black Sea area (no real access to the sea though).
Transdnistria reduces down to Tiraspol only in my view.

Laos is great when you leave Vientiane (capital). If you have enough time try Vieng Xai up north where the commie govt was hiding in caves during the war.
Right on the soccer field in front of the caves I detected and dug up my first 500lbs MK82. Demolished it in a near by mountain niche which allowed to remain extremely close (200-300ft) - will never forget!
The people out in the countryside are great!