Chinese triangular flash hole on 12.7 and 14.5 "41"


#1

hello
i would know if someone had good pictures of the flash hole primer on 12.7 and 14.5 chinese cartridges ,factory 41
i heard that they are triangular ,i m curious to see it
i had two rounds of 41 factory but they are live and i wouldn’t dissasemble these for only see the primer hole

and the 23x115 round had the same hole ? (if factory 41 made them)

thank in advance for your responses


#2

The empty 14.5mm case (headstamp 41 74) I have has three flash holes in a triangular formation. I will try to get a good image to post.

NATO Dave


#3

Actually, it is a Triangular Aperture, with a steel Ball acting as a Berdan Anvil…from the inside of the case, it looks like Three separate Holes, but it is actually ONE Three sided Hole (Equilateral Triangle.)

Doc AV


#4

In the Technical Ammunition Guide, Series 3, Pamphlet 4; 12.7mm x 108 and 14.5mm x 114 Ammunition Communist by Labbett & Brown; there is a nice illustration and brief description of this primer, in a Chinese 12.7 x 108mm case, on page 4 & figure #3. The authors describe this as the “Chinese ball and triangle system”. This illustration and description fits in with DocAV’s description above.

Ammogun, I’ve sent you an email.

Brian


#5

Thanks for the explanation on the flash hole and anvil. This is clear in the following photo

NATO Dave


#6

hello
thank for your responses and the picture
nice view of this priming


#7




12,7x108


#8

JMG,

Great set of pictures! Thanks for posting them.

Brian


#9

How is the ball held in? Is it simply a press-fit?

Was this system only used by factory 41?

It appears that it could have been dropped later. I have a 14.5mm case headstamped “41 83” which has a conventional two hole berdan primer.


#10

Falcon,

The ball is held in place by the primer pocket and the primer (cup). At least that is how Labbett shows it.

Brian


#11

Frankford Arsenal experimented with spherical anvils back in 1872 (left). The variation at right was tried in a reinforced case (gas check) designed by Col. Treadwell.


#12

JMG, thanks for the images!
Any chance you could tell us the exact depth & diameter of the primer pocket and the diameter of the steel ball?


#13

hello
thank for the news pictures
now there are a very clear view of the priming

but the system with the ball would be more early ,with the 1872 drawing show by FEDE


#14

[quote=“EOD”]JMG, thanks for the images!
Any chance you could tell us the exact depth & diameter of the primer pocket and the diameter of the steel ball?[/quote]

EOD, this cartridge is in the office and I are back in three weeks. Will measure the depth of the primer, for the steel ball is 5.5 mm in diameter


#15

[quote=“Falcon”]How is the ball held in? Is it simply a press-fit?

Was this system only used by factory 41?

It appears that it could have been dropped later. I have a 14.5mm case headstamped “41 83” which has a conventional two hole berdan primer.[/quote]

Falcon
the ball is put into force in the triangular hole before final lacquering. It is seen that the metal is deformed and there is no surface treatment on the contact surfaces of ball!
In the photo with the ball in place, it was not returned to its correct position to show


#16

JMG, thanks! Looking forward to the other measurements.


#17

I wonder if it was the intention to reload these cases? Depriming would be easier than regular berdan primers.


#18

Probably easier and simpler to punch out the triangle shape than to have a complicated drill and bit system. Would reduce drill dulling and breakage in the long run… Just my opinion based on many years in the manufacturing industry.

AKMS


#19

Quite correct…
Punching a sharp, triangular hole is easier that heading a large anvil, then drilling three holes individually (that is how it is done); and of course the Ball bearing is readily available from other Production sources. Also reduces the Machining operations (Less capital costs, less maintenance, less “expense” on drills. )

Even in a State Command Socialist economy ( where normally waste is supreme,) economy in production can also be found. The Chinese have always been proud of finding “Better ways” of doing things, even without “Mao Thought”…look at them now, under the Deng dictate about colours of cats and ability to catch mice…

Doc AV