Chronology of some cartridge families

Is it true that the 8x64mm Brenneke is based on the 9.3x62mm Mauser and the 8x65mmR is based on the 9.3x74mmR? I’ve also seen the 8x57mm marked as the parent case of the 8x64mm.
Is it correct to say the the 8x64 is the parent of the 7x64, 8x64S, 9.3x64. And the 7x65R, 8x65RS and 9,3x65R are based on the 8x65R?

Is there a parent among the 11.15mm LK Express cartridges? There are cases with 40, 50, 52, 55, 60 and 65 mm length, do we know which one came first as the parent of the others?
Same question for the 10.75mm Grundig cartridges.

Is the 8x60mmR Mauser based on the 8x60mm or the 8x57mmR? (Not even mentioning the differet 8mm bullets here) Is there a Mauser family tree out there?

So what is generally accepted in these questions?

A community-editable family tree diagram would be really interesting.

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There are many questions there and these need to be covered separately.

Firstly the LK Express. Most of the answers are here. The short answer is the Parent was the 11.15x52R which itself was based on the 36g shotshell. Note that there are two series of LK cartridges. The standard Utendoerffer type and the “St” or B.Stahl type and both had slightly different case sizes/profiles. .

Re the Gründig (note spelling), some of the answer is here. Three of them appear to have been introduced together c1898 with the 10.75x60R Gründig being later c1907. They had a unique case type with no parent case that I can tell.

The rest of your questions can be answered wrt the M88 Mauser case and will be in another post.

Thank you, WBD.
My post were to include only the Brenneke question first originally, but while typing I quickly lumped it together with the others (with that typo). I should’ve done some search on those first!
Really looking forward for the M88 part!

The M88 Mauser case

Many sporting calibers, both rimmed and rimless were based on the dimensions of the M88 case. Over 80 were designed in Europe alone. These were often called “M88” or “Mauser” not because they were introduced in 1888 or were necessarily used in Mauser weapons but rather because they were based on the case of the original 8x57 (7.9mm) M88 Mauser case type. Official tolerances (from Wiederladen) for base diameter allow variance from 11.94 to 11.97mm but even 11.90 to 12.01mm bases are not unusual. This makes it hard to distinguish between the M88 type from other rimless case types such as the Austrian Mannlicher-Schoenauer (c11.8mm Head) and 7x57R M93 Mauser (c12.1mm Head) case types.

So this includes the majority of the Brenneke necked cartridges, the 8x60 types etc. If you have the European Sporting Cartridges available it includes:

M1 to M45, M59-68, M70, M72, M75, M76,
W5-6, W8-11, W31-39, W55-58, W67, W69, W70, W82, W83, W102
SC63, GSP41, GSP49, GSP71

The same case base/rim was also the basis for the 30-06 and therefore the 308. This is a large family tree to consider.

WRT your specific questions:

Is it true that the 8x64mm Brenneke is based on the 9.3x62mm Mauser ? No and Yes (??) - No ! as the 9.3x62 started out with a c12.1mm base size which is c0.2mm larger than the M88 case. Over the years it seems to have slightly reduced to c12.0mm and the M88 often reaches 11.95mm which is very close to the 9.3x62 - so sort of Yes !

Is the 8x65mmR is based on the 9.3x74mmR? For the rimmed cases with c11.9-11.95mm base you have to consider the rim diameter. For the M88 this was really determined by the M88B - the most popular 8x57R case originally had a 11.95/13.5mm base/rim. Over the years the 8x57R rim is known to have varied from 13.2-13.6mm. The 9.3x74R was 11.9/13.35mm, the 8x65R was 11.95/13.3mm. So I guess the answer is Yes - but both originated from the 8x57R.

Is it correct to say the the 8x64 is the parent of the 7x64, 8x64S, 9.3x64. And the 7x65R, 8x65RS and 9,3x65R are based on the 8x65R? No - the 9.3x64 and 9.3x65R have larger cases - the rest are correct but both 8x64 and 8x65R were initially based on longer versions of the 8x57 and 8x57R (respectively) as were the 8x60 and 8x60R.

I would guess that the family tree of the 8x57 M88 would include hundred’s of case types - good luck with that !

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Again, thank you for your detailed explanation!
My library is too week to create a family tree like this, but the information written on this forum keeps on growing, and it sure helps.
The book is on my wishlist, and I think it should be my next one to buy.

Just slightly off topic, but: How the heck do you make an Umlaut, on a U.S. standard QWERTY keyboard?
Whaat about the Eszett, (although admittedly seldom used these days)?
Is there a secret [or not so secret] set of keystrokes I am not aware of for those and other characters?

Hold down the Alt button and press 1, 2 then 9 on the numeric keypad on the right.

As I see the relationship of cartridges with close to 11.95 mm base diameter versus those with close to 12.10 mm:
The first group is based on the German 7.9 mm Patrone 88, developed by the Prussian military. On the civilian market, it was at first named M88/8, then 8J after WW1 and finally 8x57. Variations in different calibers were called M88/9 or M88/6.6, for example.
The second group originated on the Mauser and (what became) DWM development of their own 7.65 mm cartridge with 12.05 mm base diameter. It was adopted by Belgium and later Argentina. From this Mauser/DWM derived the 7x57. Around 1900 the latter was called M93/7 (by Centralstelle Babelsberg, for example).

Considering the case length of 57 mm, it suggests itself to think the 7x57 is based on the 7.9 mm (8x57 or M88) case, but its base diameter of 12.1 mm and the contemporary name M93/7 in my view show that the 7x57 is an offspring from the 7.65 Mauser cartridge.

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Is there a chart? googlie did not help. I did succeed in getting a ‘u’ with Umlaut, thus: ü
Thanks, I am all about learning!

Try this…

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Thanks, appreciated!
Just discovered it works on my desktop computer, but not on my laptop- no separate numeric keypad.

If I do it on my laptop, it messes the whole thing up

Grant

I printed that info 16 years ago,did they even have laptops then?..Pete.

uhhh… sort of, but I think they were the size of an overnight luggage size suitcase!

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I’ made this family tree, please don’t laugh too hard.
An insane amount of information is from this forum. I spent quite a few hours researching and creating this. As I mentioned before my physical library of books is really small, so there are big guesses, as I couldn’t find too much info about the more uncommon ones on the list.

I tried to keep some chronological stucture from top to bottom, but also be as compact as possible.

My first question, is the M88 S-Patrone case identical to the 8x57JS? The 8x57JS name just came some decades later if I understand correctly.
I feel like the bottom row is a complete mess and the four “S” calibers are introduced much earlier.

I was not sure if the 10.75x57 and the 6.5x54 are a part of this family, so I used the dotted line there.
I placed the M93A (AKA 7x57 A-base) as a necked down M88A, even though probably it is more related to the 7x57, which is part of another family.

I hope it is not filled with enormous gaps and errors, and would love to hear any correction about its mistakes!
EDIT: the dates like 1894-8 are ment to mean the date of introduction (somewhere between these years) not the lifetime of that cartridge.

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I admit, the situation is very complicated, even if only looking at the M88.
The 7.9 mm Patrone 88 used an average bullet diameter of about 8.06 mm (.317").
After learning of the new French balle D, the German military in 1903 decided to replace the M88 round nose bullet with a much lighter pointed bullet, designated S for Spitzgeschoss.
When copying the new French invention, not only the pointed nose was copied, but also the larger bullet diameter. The new S bullet has a maximum diameter of 8.2 mm (.323").

Now comes the difficult part. Like the French, the Germans kept the bore dimensions UNCHANGED. This was possible, because the groove diameter of the Gewehr 88 barrel already was 8.2 mm (the French was 8.3 mm, identical to the diameter of the new balle D). The original M88 round nose bullet had had a diameter smaller than the M88 groove diameter (just like smaller diameter French balle M).

But the new bullet, while fitting the bore, required a new, wider case neck. So what was changed in the 1903/1905 time frame, was re-reaming the chamber shoulder and neck of all M88 and M98 rifles in the military inventory to acommodate the new S case. Let me repeat again: military barrel bore dimensions were not changed.

Enter of the German gun trade, because contrary to France, everyone who had the money (a hefty sum was needed) could freely buy a German military 7.9 mm rifle and its ammunition. Particularly hunters did, Kaiser Wilhelm II being the most prominent example. But the gun trade now started to build rifles with tighter barrels (8.06 mm groove diameter), appropriate for the old M88 bullet diameter. It looks as if most hunting bullet manufacturers used this diameter, not that of the new S bullet. (The case standardized by the commercial manufacturers in 1906 had the dimensions of the old M88 case. No bore dimension standardization existed.)

This resulted in the co-existence of two commercial “8 mm” cartridges on the German market with different bore diameters but no clear distinction namewise.

In the 1920s, the German gun trade and industry agreed to give the smaller groove diameter barrels of commercial origin the name 8 x 57 J and the barrels with larger bore dimensions 8 x 57 JS. The J in both cases stands for infantry (J for I is another story) and the S for S Patrone dimensions.

Gewehr 88 and Gewehr 98 (Mauser design) as originally issued(!) fired the Patrone 88. In modern terms, they had a 8 x 57 J chamber, but the bore dimensions of 8 x 57 JS. After the adoption of the S cartridges in 1903, the chambers of all rifles in the inventory were re-reamed to 8 x 57 JS.

In short, we have the 8 x 57 JS with identical dimensions as the military 7.9 mm cartridge (bore since 1888, bullet diameter since 1903). And we have the tighter bore 8 x 57 J, which uses bore dimensions invented by the German gun trade, based in the old Patrone 88 bullet diameter.

I consider this 8 x 57 J as invented by the gun trade as a dead end from the starting point. But the anomalies created by the Versailles treaty enabled it to survive, because civilian ownership of the 8 x 57 JS after 1918 well into the 1930s was illegal, because it counted as war material.

Now, this is the story behind the first column of your table. I am not really in a position to comment on the other columns.

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Thank you for your time, and detailed answer! This part is now getting clear. I should modify the 1905 date to 1903. If I understand you right, cartridgewise, the commercial ammo what we would call 8x57J today was available soon after 1888 for commercial rifles of a tighter bore. How soon was that, and what was the commercial ammo called then? And same question for the commercial cartridge with the “S” diameter bullet: was it sold just right after 1903 for sporting rifles? Did it have a different commercial name back then?

Sorry, the contemporary German journals I went through did not give any hint when exactly either the equivalent of todays 8 x 57 J or the equivalent of todays 8 x 57 JS became available on the civilian market.
In any case I would expect that date to be several years after the military adoption, when the military orders were fullfilled and production became available for other customers.
Regarding Mauser M98 and S Patrone, it is known that these were freely available a number of years before WW1, because the journals contain heated discussions comparing pre-WW1 S Patrone pricing for end users to post-WW1 ammunition costs.
Regarding commercial names:
The 7.9 mm military cartridge was called M88/8 by the commercial standardization committee. NO differentiation existed between the commercial (later 8x57 J) and the military (later 8 x 57 JS) variation. By the way, our modern letter “R” also was not yet in use. Refering to the soon-developed rimmed versions for the break-open rifles preferred by hunters still required explicit mention of the rim (mit Rand, Randpatrone).
Immediately after WW1, official use of the name M88/8 was discontinued (because of the military M88 association, I believe) and the new name 8J (plus 8JR for the rimmed versions) was chosen. But still there was no separation between “tight” commercial and “normal” military versions.
In the early 1920s, after a futile attempt to forcibly merge both variations into one single set of dimensions, industry and trade agreed on the now common 8 x 57 J and 8 x 57 JS (both accompanied by rimmed JR and JRS cartridges) in preparation of a future proof law. It took until 1939 for a new proof law, replacing the black-powder oriented law of 1891, to be put into effect.

Edit for clarity: the commercial standardization committee only was able to reach agreement on maximum case dimensions. No agreement on chamber, throat or bore dimensions was achieved before the 1920s. There was simply no body comparable to SAAMI or CIP.

Thank you, this is helping to narrow down the possible time period. I’m updating the drawing with a 1905-1913 timezone for the 8x57JS and 8x57JRS, that seems safe to say, based on your reply. No wonder this “8mm Mauser” confusion still present today.
Maybe you can help with the 8x60 group?
I couldn’t find any useful sources but It seems logical to me that the whole group (8x60, S, R, RS) appeared basically at the same time in 1919 or 1920. The 1923 and 1928 dates I have found are just too late for the replacement for the banned 8x57 group.