Clip and Links


#1

I recently had the opportunity to visit one of our forensic establishments and was shown a collection of clips and links. Can anyone provide any information on those pictured below? The clips look like a 7.92? but are linked together on the back. It appears that you could add further clips to make a longer belt. What was this used in if anything?

Thanks

Buster


#2

Hello,

no idea about the linked stripper clips.

Concerning the belts from to to bottom :
1°) 7.92x57 : UK Besa experimental (patented by Thomas French in 1946)
2°) .303 : Dutch service belt for aircraft Vickers (post WW1)
3°) 30.06 : UK experimental belt for Tank & Infantry Vickers (last Vickers gun designed after WW2)

Cheers,

JFL


#3

The articulated chargers at the top are for the 7.7x58SRmm Japanese MG type 89 (1929). The belt is an integral part of the magazine for the Type 89 double aircraft machine gun. The belt has five-round rifle type chargers riveted to hinged plates and acts as a cartridge conveyor in the magazine. There are two hinges per charger along the length of the belt. The complete belt contained 25 chargers so the fan-shaped magazine held 125 rounds. The action of this unique magazine was described in “The Machine Gun” by Chinn, Volume IV, parts 10-11 page 271.
The 7.7mm semi-rimmed ammunition for this gun was supplied on brass five-round chargers. These chargers puzzled many collectors for years because no rifle was found to use them. An adaptor is used with the magazine to facilitate loading from the special chargers.

The .303” belt was introduced in 1918 for use with Netherlands Vickers MG’s and remained in service until the German invasion of 1940. Both the cartridge pockets and the connecting loops are made from steel tubing giving a robust construction.

gravelbelly


#4

I have always been a bit puzzled by the identity of this interesting machine gun. Wanting in his book “Patronen” shows a photograph of a linked-clip similar to the one seen by Buster, but says it is for the Japanese Type 86 (1926) MG, and it is clearly holding 6.5x50SR Arisaka cartridges. If Wanting is correct, this suggests that an earlier version existed before the introduction of the Type 89 MG and its 7.7x58SR cartridge in 1929 (as Gravelbelly says, this cartridge requires a special, wider, charger than that for the 6.5 round).

And Chinn in his account of presumably the same system in Vol.4 of “The Machine Gun” refers to it as the Type 100 (1940). Perhaps this was the date of introduction, and hence the official Japanese title, of the twin version of the Type 89 MG. Can anyone throw any definitive light on this?

John E


#5

John,

After I found that 6.5mm Arisaka cartridges were a poor fit in my piece of this articulated belt (they fell out readily) I did query the calibre with Hugo Wanting. He confirmed that the correct calibre of our pieces was the 7.7mm semi-rimmed but that this was not known at the time of printing of the book. He also gave me a photo of the MG in a museum.

gravelbelly


#6

Dave –

As the Type 89 7.7x58SR cartridge wasn’t introduced until 1929, it looks as though we can assume that the MG referred to by Wanting was in reality a Type 89, and that his “Type 86” is another of the misnomers that plague the study of Japanese weapons. But I would still like to see some confirmation of Chinn’s Type 100 designation.

John E


#7

Type 86, Type89, Type 100…All "Aircraft MG "designs.

The Type 86 (1926) design was an initial Modification of the Nambu Type 11 (1922) gun, to use 6,5mm ammo, in an aircraft role with a Magazine. Rarely seen,
and can be considered a “Prototype” ( there is one in Beijing, I think). The Japanese Army-Airforce had, Like the Navy, Imported a quantity of Vickers, Lewises, and Ammunition to experiment with,in the 1920s, and whilst the Navy went with the Vickers and Lewis (in .303 (7,7x56Rimmed) the Army-Airforce stuck with Nambu’s designs, and made a “Beefed up” semi rimmed 7,7 case (the Type 89) which eventually morphed into the Type 92.(Army).

The Type 89 Flexible (Single) is a common Observer’s gun for aircraft (Pan magazine similar to Vickers K or Degtyarev DT28)
which is chambered for the then New 7,7x58SR Type 89 ammo ( 168 grain proj), copied from the 174 grain .303); The Type 92 Improved the Ammo for ground Use ( also Nambu)…after about 1936, ammo for both was the same M92 Ground Loading.
( Packets of 50 rounds are so marked, and this ammo is Clipped)

The Type 89 (Twin) was the gun fitted with the “Fan” chain link clip magazine, which sat on a “snowshoe” type frame on either sides of the two (Mirror Image) Guns. The ratchet feed mechanism was the same as that used on the Type 11 Hopper)

Type 100 (both Single and Twin guns ( again, examples in Beijing Museum) were supposedly chambered for the Type 99 Rimless ammo, although one suspects the bolt was cut out to use either Type 89/92 and Type 99 ( as happened with the Type 1 Heavy strip-fed Ground Gun.)

I have a Type 89 Single Flexible…The Pan holds 67 Rounds, and could be mistaken for a Vickers K magazine, except for the Diameter.
Making Blank ammo for it has been another matter, which I won’t go into here.

Type 89/92 stripper clips have no side lugs, and are slightly wider than normal Type 99 clips.

Interesting the Dutch Vickers Variant… Nice one.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.
Brisbane Australia.


#8

DocAv –

Very interesting. Thanks for blowing away some of the fog that surrounds the subject of Japanese MGs.

John E


#9

Thanks for all the information, I will feed it back to those that have the items.

Buster


#10

Here is the 5-round charger, which is used, with an adaptor/loader to fill the magazines of the Japanese Types 89 and 92 machine guns.



And before the nitpickers pounce on me, I know that the pink mouth seals have been tampered with. The only 7.7x58SR rounds that I had were in a 30 round ground MG feed strip. I pulled the bullets to inert all of them, as I don’t keep live ammo in my clips and charger collection. The pink seals broke up so I touched them up with my wife’s nail varnish!

And here are pictures of my piece of the articulated magazine transporter, I haven’t got round to photographing this with the rounds.


Does anyone have a picture of the loading machine which stripped the chargers into magazines?

gravelbelly


#11

I always thought that the Japanese chargers with no sidewall lugs were for the Nambu designed Type 11 light machine gun. This was a strange looking thing with a hopper on the left side of the receiver into which loaded clips were put with a sprung follower to keep them in place. The cartridges were ‘stripped’ from the bottom charger in the hopper. Here is a picture of the gun with its ammunition box;

The clips also were made from steel as well as brass, most I’ve seen have the little ‘mu’ mark often found on regular Arisaka chargers;

Happy collecting, Peter


#12

Has anyone yet discovered the significance of the small “nearly a triangle” mark often seen on the base of the Japanese 7.7x58SR chargers shown by Enfield? It also occurs on many of the 6.5 and 7.7 Arisaka rifle chargers with sidewall lugs, both brass and steel, and sometimes in the company of the small central hole in the charger base. So far as I know, it has not been found on any of the early (WW1-era?) chargers, identified by sidewalls 5mm or more in height.

I also have it on one of the 7.9x57 chargers with the single broad central groove in its base, almost certainly originally of Chinese design. These are thought to have been made, probably at Mukden, during Japanese occupation of Manchukuo for use by locally-raised forces in “Mukden Mauser” rifles.

John E


#13

Peter,

If you look closely at your photograph of the Type 11 MG and ammo box you may see that the chargers have the side lugs so they are not the 7.7x58SR ones that you show in your next photos.

gravelbelly


#14

[quote=“gravelbelly”]Peter,

If you look closely at your photograph of the Type 11 MG and ammo box you may see that the chargers have the side lugs so they are not the 7.7x58SR ones that you show in your next photos.

gravelbelly[/quote]

How right you are.

I have sought and I have found… thanks to Google.

The presence of sidewall lugs accounts for the gaps between the chargers in the hopper. Thanks for pointing this out.

Happy collecting, Peter


#15

[quote=“JJE”]Has anyone yet discovered the significance of the small “nearly a triangle” mark often seen on the base of the Japanese 7.7x58SR chargers shown by Enfield? It also occurs on many of the 6.5 and 7.7 Arisaka rifle chargers with sidewall lugs, both brass and steel, and sometimes in the company of the small central hole in the charger base. So far as I know, it has not been found on any of the early (WW1-era?) chargers, identified by sidewalls 5mm or more in height.

I also have it on one of the 7.9x57 chargers with the single broad central groove in its base, almost certainly originally of Chinese design. These are thought to have been made, probably at Mukden, during Japanese occupation of Manchukuo for use by locally-raised forces in “Mukden Mauser” rifles.

John E[/quote]

Here are the little ‘mu’ markings on a variety of Japanese chargers;

Makers mark? Acceptance mark? Any idea.

Peter


#16

Why was the hopper with the chargers in chosen as a feed system? Did the engineers who designed it just feel like doing something different or was there a presumed advantage to it?


#17

It beats me… whilst there is sense in most other types of ammunition packaging the variety of oddities found with machine guns is always a source of wonder.

Now, there’s a thought!

Happy collecting, Peter