Crottet Miniature from "Historian"


#1

[quote]Did Crottet make a 1/2 scale of 7.65mm Parabellum (.30 Luger) ?
I have found one (black case) with hds. DWM K K 471A but that one is for a Carbine, need one that is made for the pistol.
Does anyone know when (year) Crottet did make all his miniature rounds for the pistol ? Thanks. Alex[/quote]

I was looking through some stuff in the archive and came across this unanswered question.

This cartridge was actually made by Ray Hutchins

Here are some other scale cartridges Ray Hutchins made that a friend of mine just recently picked up:

[quote]30 Luger with hdst DWM K K 471 A
9 Luger with truncated bullet No hdst
9 Luger with iron case and black bullet No hdst
7.63 Mauser No hdst
9 Luger with hdst Ge 6 18 D.
9 Borchardt with hdst MARS 9 MM R*- 361148
8 Nambu No hdst
45 Auto Nickel case with hdst R - P 45 AUTO
10.4 Swiss Rev. Lead bullet with paper patch made by Crottet in Switzerland
Approx 1/3 scale 7m/m Mauser with red tip bullet and green case mouth
1/2 scale 7m/m Mauser with hdst GRL. P. QUIROGA[/quote]

Does anyone else collect scale ammo?


#2

I collect miniature auto pistol cartridges when I can get them at reasonable prices or in trade. Often, they are too expensive for me since it is a whimsical side-line to me. I have several of the cartridges you mentioned, but are you sure about the chap you say made them? At least one of my pistol types, and unfortunately, I forget which one, came out of Switzerland, from a friend/collector there, identified as Crottet manufacture.

Can you document that the chap you mentioned made them, and can you tell us something about him. Is he the Canadian who makes excellent miniature guns much like those done by Crottet? If so, I met him years ago when he visited the San Francisco Gun Exchange, and had a fairly long conversation with him. He show me several miniature guns he had made, but no cartridges. One, I seem to recall, was a Colt Lightning revolver. It has been years, and I could be wrong, but I think it sticks in my memory because I was surprised he could make a miniature of that particular gun, probably the worst revolver Colt ever made, since even the full size ones are cranky and often don’t function properly.

I have three 7.9 x 57 miniatures (3.95 x 2.80 approx.) cartridges with a miniature K98k stripper clip and two miniature cartridge boxes, I didn’t see on your list. They are definitely Swiss.

I also have an unheadstamped 9 x 18 (4.5 x 9 mm) Makarov miniature, but am not sure who make that. I would love to see, or perhaps even buy, the gun it was made for, if any.

Miniatures are fun and interesting, but often too expensive for most of us. I will admit to be fortunate to have the ones I have, since most were either gifted to me or traded for.

John Moss


#3

One thing I forgot to mention. I think you made an error - you list a 9 mm Borchardt, and then show a Mars Cartridge headstamp. I think you meant “9 mm Mars.”

John Moss


#4

I have no first hand knowledge of any of these.

I do have a few scale cartridges, but try to stay with ones that correspond to my full-size collections.

I received the info from the president of the Miniature Arms Collectors/Makers Society. But i believe that the info was just given to him that way from the one he bought it from. I will try to find out some more information on Ray Hutchins.

He bought quite a few, and those were just the ones in a section that said it was made by Ray Hutchins.

He also got a miniature with “O Witt” written on it…maybe made by Otto? I will try to get some pictures.


#5

The half scale headstamped Ge 6 18 D was almost certainly made by Crottet in Switzerland. I got mine directly from him back in the 1970s when he first started making minitures. I’d be surprised if two people used this common headstamp and both picked the identical date. He is still actively making both guns and cartridges (at least he was the last time I spoke to him in 2008). Crottet has made both dummies with spring loaded “primers” and has actually made some loaded cartridges. I know he has made truncated bullet 9x19mm in half scale. I have never collected his cartridges and only have the single specimen mentioned above.

Cheers,

Lew Curtis


#6

I have a 1/2 scale .22LR that was made by Léon Crottet:

I will try to get pictures of these other cartridges and maybe we can figure out for sure who made them.


#7

The 7.9 x 57 Mauser rounds I have (half scale) from Crottet are a Ball round, a blank, and a red plastic dummy, all copies of German rounds. No headstamps though. However, the ball and blank are live ammunition, and I am told will not only shoot in his miniatures of that caliber, but will work the action of his miniature G-43s. I have no way to verify it. I didn’t know Crottet personally, and all my contacts that did are gone now, unless Dimi knew him.

Lew - I agree that the particular 9mm you are talking about is absolutely Crottet. It is, in fact, the round that caused me to question the identification.

Does anyone know the name of the Canadian chap that was making miniature firearms to the same quality as Crottet? Paul Smith - do you know? Just wondered. I had his card for years, but don’t recall his name and no longer have the card.

John Moss


#8

David Kucer is a master miniature maker from Montreal. Is it maybe him you are thinking of?


#9

Also, Here is a book about Raymond Hutchens:

On another website (Rock Island Auction Company) they say this about them both:

So it looks as if Raymond Hutchens started the modern exact scale miniatures, and other have followed in his footsteps.


#10

Is the book about him available anywhere? Who published it? I would like to get a copy of it. Does the book show any of the miniature cartidges in detail, or discuss them?

The name given for the Canadian maker sounds familiar. I have the impression that at the time I met the man I am trying to think of, he was older than I. I am 71 now. Would that fit for Mr.
Kucer?

John Moss


#11

[quote=“JohnMoss”]Is the book about him available anywhere? Who published it? I would like to get a copy of it. Does the book show any of the miniature cartidges in detail, or discuss them?

The name given for the Canadian maker sounds familiar. I have the impression that at the time I met the man I am trying to think of, he was older than I. I am 71 now. Would that fit for Mr.
Kucer?

John Moss[/quote]

There are a few available on here: http://www.idsabooks.com/cgi-bin/idb455/find/title/S.html

And Kucer’s website, with a picture of him on front page is: http://www.kucers.com/


#12

The Listing of “miniatures”, I take it these are “inert” rounds simply replication the full size cartridges? ( ie, Turned from solid etc?..by Crottet et al.?)

I do know that DM made Live ammo Miniatures back in the late 1890s,–early 1900s for a small batch of Miniature M95 Mausers as presentation Pieces for some Mexican Generals – the cartridges are 3,5x28,5, are primed, with very small diameter primers and will fire in the respective rifles.
The headstamps were engraved with the names of the generals to whom the rifles were gifted.

I have not heard of any other production of Live Miniatures, by DM or anybody else.

Anybody have any further info? especially on the construction of “live Miniatures” ( and I don’t mean “Liliput” or “Kolibri” cartridges, although the primers developed for these would have been used in the “Mexican” miniatures ( or vice-versa, as the “Mini Pistols” came after the Mexican cartridges).

Besides, Who did make Lilliput and Kolibri ammo???

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics


#13

DocAV:

These are completely live and shootable exact scale replicas usually made to work with guns they made. Crottet makes about the best live scale ammo now-a-days, but many other people make it also.

I was just recently talking with Charlie Williams, an IAA member and a member of the Miniature Arms Society who is curently making a 1/4 scale Hi-point experimental 9mm para blowback pistol that was being developed for US forces to be used in extremely cold places. He is making ten 1/4 scale 9mm para cartridges to go with it that are the the exact specs as the ones made specifically for that experimental gun. He makes mini primers and everything.

My 1/2 scale .22 I pictured above is completely live and fireable too.


#14

Aaron - Thanks for the reply. I am sure that is him - I even found a picture of the Colt Lightning MIniature I saw on his website. I am assuming it is the same one. I will phone IDSA Books tomorrow and try to buy a copy of the book. Thanks again.

John Moss


#15

Thanks, Aaron and JM; that has cleared up a quandary for me…it also raises a legal point (not necessarily in the USA) in many countries, where such “miniatures” would be considered “Real, Live Firearms” if the ( functioning) ammo is available.

The ( private) manufacturer of these Items, must have a very good knowledge of cartridge makiing, especially where the primers are concerned., both the formation of the cups and the filling of them.
I wonder what his Liability Insurance is like??? ( since he is making these miniatures for sale?).

Anyway, with our laws, such a situation could not occur in Australia. —Our few “miniature” makers ( I know a couple) have to make their “jewels” inoperative ( solid barrels, or un-rifled barrels, and unchambered.) Mostly they use old .177 Air-rifle barrels, from guns which have been “chopped”.

Regards,
Doc AV.
AV Ballistics.


#16

A lot of them actually have FFLs and all the legal framework to make and sell firearms and ammunition.

Others do not actually sell them, but only make them for testing their firearms…and maybe trade only with other collectors.