Crude ammo


#1

How about some pictures of really crudely made production ammunition.


#2

I “get” the gist of your tempting question…but would also say that “crude” is relative.

…as my fascination with flechettes (“small arrows”) would beg to argue that the arrow from bow & arrow days was a crude ammunition

(albeit the carbon-fiber gizmos hunters use these days)

But these sure seem crude by design and delivery

As they were made on pencil/nail/lathes as opposed to the express/rush redesign of the same concept circa 2000 for the CBU 107

Certainly delivered a tad more sophisticatedly with a laser guided canister and a $40M jet

But all in all…a crude piece of “kinetic material” falling via gravity to a “maybe target”

(I assume you are looking for old odd paper…coiled…etc…”stuff”)

(I always though lead/steel balls in tar fired from a cannon was pretty crude…”grape shot”)

Happy New Year

Pepper


#3

Speechless.

Rare, I know. Good stuff there, Pepper.


#4

Its not quite what the thread intended but over many years of shooting around the various ranges in Britain I have seen some pretty crude reloads. I have long harboured doubts as to the wisdom of letting some morons loose with reloading gear.

It seems odd to me that any old person can go and buy the components and assemble their own ammunition. I’m not talking about the implications for crime or terrorism just basic public safety. Its a vast and complicated subject to assemble proper ammunition. Its not like the old days when it was virtually impossible to overload something like a .32-20 with black powder.

The latest generation of high tech rifle calibres requires a high level of understanding to put the ammunition togeather properly and the average shooter simply doesn’t have it.


#5

It is said the opposite of crude is refined

(there has to be a petrochemical joke in there somewhere)

I think a mini computer (with download jack/plug) is “refined” (by today’s relative standards) as this 20 m/m OICW (Objective Individual Combat Weapon’s) “OBR” (on board recorder) fits the bill (of refined) and carries this thread a tad father away from its intended track…

PS…would be a tough reload as the aluminum collet has to be lathe cut to access the computer


#6

Just for diversity.
Here a German 14.5x51R DAG artillery trainer with an electronic time fuze:


#7

deleted


#8

Vince - will have to disagree with you on reloading by individuals. Firstly, speaking as a retired retail dealer of 36 years experience, and a reloader for just under fifty years now, the incident of bad reloads (I mean ones that cause accidents - I am not getting into accuracy here - some new shooters are happy if the bullets go down range, since they can’t hit anything with ANY ammo) statistically is very, very small. We had almost as many defective factory cartridges over the years brought to our attention thaa we did reloads. The worst reloads I ever saw while “in the game” professionally were by some of the licensed, small commercial ammunition makers. It is only fair to say that some of the best I have seen were from the same group (but not the same firms). We threw one brand of commercial reloads out of our store after having it only a few weeks, and refused to warrant any gun sold by us that was fired with reloads purchased on a local indoor range. Bad stuff!

As to the complexity of reloading, considering that many teen-age boys can “field strip” a complete automobile by the time they are 18 years old (I was NOT among them - I don’t know a gasket from a spark plug), and that a cartridge has exactly four components to assemble, I honestly believe one could teach a chimpanze to assemble cartridges if you preset the equipment for him. It is only a matter of being able to read from a commercial reloading manual and assemble a component that has only four parts to make perfectly decent, safe and usable ammunition. Like anything we do in life, one must pay attention to the task at hand and exercise care. Again, I am not talking about match-winning cartridges here, but rather simply serviceable, safe ammunition for general plinking and target shooting. One can make the task as complex as he wants and is necessary to turn out tiny groups. The fact so many people reload doesn’t scare me nearly as much as how easy it is to get and retain a driver’s license.

JMHO. I have loaded more ammo than I care to remember ($$$$$) and am still waiting for the first bad one, and I am, mechanically and technologically speaking, a moron.

John Moss


#9

Vince, perhaps that is the way over in the UK but there are many folks who reload ammunition that belong to the same gun club that I do and there has never been a mishap that I have heard of. I don’t have quite the number of years of experience that John Moss has (41 years), and my observations are the same as his.

There are a number of good reloading books in the U.S. and if a reloader follows their instructions, they will be crafting very good ammunition with no possibility of a mishap.

Sincerely,
w30wcf


#10

Nice projectile Rick…what’s the head stamp ?

as to my Special Purpose…less lethal fascination…

? crude (well…maybe better said “elementary”)…but I in my opinion “way cool”…very early (late 50’s- early 60’s) chemical irritants (‘tear gas”)

(how “cool” are these glass projo’s ??..and yes their function was to break and spray)

(rubber “sting ball” in for scale!)

Not 100% confirmed but if as I suspect…a very early tear gas “powder” …”grenade”…this is pretty “crude”

As suspected…filled with an irritant powder…tossed…breaks open on impact…thus a powder cloud

Impressed printing says…
Police Grenade…Chicago…patent pending…Lewis-Hughes Co.
(anyone know ?)(Google doesn’t!!)

Lastly…maybe not crude…but “elementary”

Drill a hold by the lock of a safe…break the tear gas…out it spills…and supposedly…you stop drilling ???

Yes…a bit of a reach as to ammunition…but less lethal…tear gas…you get the story !


#11

Pepper, your Police Grenade rocks!

Is the one with the glass ampoule a cal. 4 ?


#12

yes I guess cal 4…or 4 guage…or 25 mm…I tend to call it 1"

(I am pretty proud of that critter…I sectioned the window in it…just cut the end wad out, pulled the cotton wadding, slid the glass ampule out…cut the window, and reassembled it)

(I have it’s unsectioned mate)

I kinda like my less lethal stuff (hint…hint if anything lurks out there!)

the old stuff is fascinating with the glass and then the later “gelatine” capsule (primitive plastic ?)


#13

I believe the key word here is ‘production’.


#14

Am I going to be forced to go down to “the room” and stuff a 45ACP bullet into a 44spl case, or go “whole hog” and expand a 38spl case up to 45?

The usual mess up is the guy that simply uses the wrong ammo in his firearm (44Mag in a 45Colt comes to mind), loses his page in the loading manual (257 Roberts Ackley data in a standard 257Roberts case/rifle) etc, not so much a sloppy and visual reloading error.

But I do seem to remember a old story about a Inuit hunter that would recover his 30-30 FMJ bullet, decide if it could be reused (again!!!) and than reloaded it into his saved 30-30 case (and he was shooting IIRC white bears with it). Now that seems a tad bit sloppy to me (but I’ve never been faced with such a survival/lack of supplies situation either).


#15

[quote=“Pepper”]yes I guess cal 4…or 4 guage…or 25 mm…I tend to call it 1"

(I am pretty proud of that critter…I sectioned the window in it…just cut the end wad out, pulled the cotton wadding, slid the glass ampule out…cut the window, and reassembled it)

(I have it’s unsecitoned mate)

I kinda like my less lethal stuff (hint…hint if anything lurks out there!)

the old stuff is fascinating with the glass and then the later “gelatine” capsule (primitive plastic ?)[/quote]

Pepper, thanks a lot! Great item and info.


#16

some of the .410…12…1" tear gas cousins (the round alum top gizmos have a paper projo in them)


#17

Malorbeau,
I’m wondering what kind of crude production ammo you actually had in mind. I’m aware of some really crude Spanish Reformado cartridges made in the Phillipines during the Spanish-American war, some of which I believe had rolled cases, but I don’t know that these would be considered to be production ammo.


#18

Just looking for any kind of production ammunition that either missed the Quality Control or ammo that the facility had really low standards for like most of the Arab arsenals.Generally commercial ammo would not meet these requirements but lets look at all of their screw ups.


#19

Somewhere in my “accumulation” there are two, from the same box, RP .38 Special that had the bullets seated backwards. Came out of a new box that was procured by a Federal agency that arrived in a huge lot(a pallet of .38!). Maybe they got behind and in a rush pushed through the order and missed a QA check or two. Odd enough to me, even back in my ammo blastin’ days, to set them aside. Saving them for a collector. Maybe.


#20

Vince, perhaps that is the way over in the UK
Sincerely,
w30wcf[/quote]

I would say that’s not the way it is here in the UK.
Raking my memory the only reloading errors I recall seeing people using have been .38 wadcutters seated upside down thereby resulting in a rather large hollowpoint and an increase in pressure due to the now lack of cavity behind the incorrectly seated bullet.
The only accidents I have personally witnessed have been with factory made ammunition. A Mosin-Nagant blown up on the Short Siberia at Bisley using surplus arab ammunition of mixed manufacture, and a Glock at a UKPSA competition in the mid 1990’s.