Current US 7,62x51 NATO dummy cartridge

In the light of continuing use by US forces of 7,62x51 in a variety of different rifles does anyone have any idea what the current issue dummy cartridge looks like?

The latest US dummy I’ve seen used a case marked LC (+) 01 with a blind pocket and a lightly coned crimp. The years since 2001 have seen different bullets used in the 7,62 and I wonder if dummies in use reflect this.

Happy collecting,

Peter

That’s a good question, Peter. I’m anxiously awaiting an answer from those who know.

As you know, there is more than one 7.62mm NATO Dummy. The M63 is used for training and gun functioning and the M172 for testing link belts and gun functioning. And there are variations of each of those. How many variations? That’s a good question. Are the variations official? Another good question. I’m not even sure the M172 is a NATO cartridge.

Ray

As I’m still too tired to sleep I’ve been idling around the internet and found this;

http://www.dillonaero.com/content/p/9/pid/33/catid/0/Dummy_Ammunition

Which seems quite a sensible solution to a problem that I thought solved ages ago.

Peter

I’m not even sure the M172 is a NATO cartridge.

Ray

The only M172 I recall seeing on this side of the pond had, if I read my scribble correctly, a headstamp of LC (+) 69 which would imply that it does have a NATO standard. But then memory is a fickle thing, especially when inscribed by my hand.

Peter

I think “debulleting” is more imagined than real. Both the M63 and M172 have an extra ring crimp on the bullet itself. The M63 bullet is very light weight and it can sometimes be nearly impossible to pull with a kinetic puller, much less coming out simply from running it through a rifle action, even repeatably.

But, that’s just my opinion.

Ray

I have quite a few M172 Dummies and I think they all are made on cases with the (+). But, since dummies were often made with seconds or reject cases, that really doesn’t prove anything, IMHO.

Most of my odd-ball dummies (those with the painted tips, Tombstone, etc) also use (+) cases. They are definitely not NATO.

Ray

I think “debulleting” is more imagined than real. Both the M63 and M172 have an extra ring crimp on the bullet itself. The M63 bullet is very light weight and it can sometimes be nearly impossible to pull with a kinetic puller, much less coming out simply from running it through a rifle action, even repeatably.

But, that’s just my opinion.

Ray

In “Cartridges of the World” 7th Edition there is a section at the back on “US Military Ammunition” which states that for the M172; “The force required to extract the bullet from the case shall be not less than 173lbs.”.

Which means that I, even in my current ‘overfed’ state, could safely hang from an M172 bullet … with several pockets full of 9mmP rarities without the case and the bullet separating and dumping me on the floor.

Not an image to linger on.

Peter

That’s an image none of us want to linger on. Especially with supper time approcahing. ;–)

Yes, as I do not want to see any rare 9x19 being spilled all over the floor receiving micro scratches and dents etc… Let alone that an overfed dude will fall on top of them.
Peter, pardon me, I could not resist :)

Btw.: Any image available showing a lineup of US made 7.62x51 dummies then? As most none-US folks may not be very firm in this subject (including me).

slide #19

The .50 BMG M2 Dummy is now the M2A1, for example.

tuesdaysessioniiGrassano.pdf (1.4 MB)

In response to EOD, here is a sample of dummy and inert US 7.62mm NATO rounds from my collection. It’s not the most comprehensive lineup but there are a few variations:

Dummy, T70E4 (technically not NATO at this date)
1068-h

1068-s

Dummy, M63
657-h

657-s

I have several dates for the M63: this is the earliest one I have while the latest I have are dated 1960 (both FA and LC with NATO symbol).

The following four inert rounds seem to be variations leading up to the M172, which is pictured last. These all have an inert filler to simulate a powder charge. I’m not sure when M172 became an official designation so I won’t label these with a model number.

1732-h

1732-s

402-h

402-s

1068-h

1068-s

(I also have the round above with a (+) FA 60 headstamp)

659-h

659-s

Inert, M172
1733-h

1733-s

The latest date I have for the M172 is (+) LC 69.

I have several other dummies with US military headstamps and later dates, but as Ray mentioned these seem to be unofficial dummies made with existing cases.

In particular, I have this one ((+) LC 75) but I’m not certain if it is military issue (it has a blind primer pocket):

1726-h

1726-s

I also have this round but it was reportedly made by Dillon to function test their miniguns, so it wouldn’t qualify as an official military dummy:

1069-h

1069-s

Chip, thanks a lot! A very informative compilation!

The M63 is my favourite then.

The specification for the inert M172 round is MIL-D-60573, first version dated 19 Aug 1966. It replaced a Frankford Arsenal (I assume) document identified as FA-PD-MI-2431 dated 3 Jul 1961.
Maybe this can help in dating the M172 adoption.

Bullet extraction force is indeed specified as being not less than 175 lbs.

Thanks to Chip for the photos from his great web site. If you have not visited it yet, you are missing one of the better sites devoted to military cartridges.

There are many more variations of the pre-NATO and 7.62mm NATO Dummy cartridges. I don’t have a photo of them all together, unfortunately. They can be a collecting specialty all on their own.

Ray

I’ve finally managed to track down pictures of the LC (+) 01 7,62x51 dummy. It has a brass case, a blind primer pocket, a coned crimp and the bullet is strongly magnetic. It weighs 327 grains.

LC012_zpsfba447e4

Given that this cartridge is now thirteen years old and with the heavy recruitment and training cycles of US forces since then, together with the variety of weapons using this calibre it would be remarkable were this to be the final US 7,62x51 service dummy, let alone the final version of it.

Has anyone seen a more recent one?

Peter

The most recent 7.62mm dummy is the M63A1. The entire cartridge is nickel plated with a fluted case, no primer and no fill. It is shown along with its 50 BMG , 5.56mm and 9mm relatives in GTA 09-15-001

GTA09-15-001.pdf (282.8 KB)

This document is dated October 2008. I believe that production of the M63A1 did take place in 2013.

NATO Dave

I’m going to unashamedly bump this post blinking back into the light of day, I was thinking about US dummies again when out working last week.

Have any examples of the M63A1 turned up yet and does anyone have a) a picture of one and b) a spare they no longer need.

Peter

Actually there are dummy cartridges M63A1 in eBay available in USA only from this URL link https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Fluted-308-Winchester-Snap-Caps-7-62x51-7-62-NATO-308-Win-M63A1-Dummy-Rounds/283636449192?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D530986dd8d074581a4f9af3d3a89d9ad%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D202977639441%26itm%3D283636449192%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A8d071631-2bbc-11eb-9981-e2462c4e39e2|parentrq%3Ae9549ecd1750acc3f440e648ffeeadb0|iid%3A1