Curtis's & Harvey's


#1

Here is a picture of an Curtis’s & Harvey’s shotshell.

I think at the bottom it is written G K & Co

What does it mean ??
Thanks
JP


#2

Hi J.P.

George Kynoch & Co (G K & Co)

Cheers,
Will.


#3

[quote=“powdertin”]Hi J.P.

George Kynoch & Co (G K & Co)

Cheers,
Will.[/quote]

Thank you Will!
JP


#4

derelictplaces.co.uk/main/sh … hp?t=12242

C&H were an enigma because they figured so strongly and then disappeared so completely when smokeless powders came along.


#5

[quote=“VinceGreen”]http://www.derelictplaces.co.uk/main/showthread.php?t=12242

C&H were an enigma because they figured so strongly and then disappeared so completely when smokeless powders came along.[/quote]

???
C&H made a lot of smokeless powder , therefore I don’t understand your sentence
JP


#6

They disappeared into (what would become) the IMI organisation, I am not sure that by that time they existed except as a name. Nobel Glasgow took over the mantle and the production. The old powder mills closed around 1904. I may be wrong, I often am, but I don’t think they produced any smokeless powder except perhaps in name.


#7

there are catalogues of C&H till at least 1913
In the 1912 catalogue they say as title on the cover page :manufacturer of black gunpowders and smokeless Powders"
And they list as factories :
Hounslow, Feltham, Faversham, Datford, Tonbridge, Cliffe at Hoo, Glynneath, ballincollig, kames, Roslin, Midlothian, etc

Does it include the location you are talking about ?

The next trace I have of Curtiss and Harvey is in 1925 when they joined Eley and Kynoch to become Nobel Industries Limited.

But perhaps Curtiss was already member before (in 1918) of Explosives Trade ltd (Nobel industries) when Kynoch and Nobel joined together
Or perhaps C&H was already member of Nobel’s explosives Co since 1913.

I have found till now nobody able to explain me the story of the 5 British companies, therefore all I know is coming from internet sources which are not compliant together

JP


#8

Hi JP and Vince.

Kynoch purchased the Black Powder Mills of Worsboro Dale Gunpowder Mills in 1893. They quickly added Cordite and started to make smokeless powders a few years after, however, the Cordite took precedence. Much of their powders went into the Kynoch cartridge production, which is why Kynoch originally purchased the Mills.

In 1898, there was a major amalgamation of gunpowder mills in England. Curtis’s & Harvey, John Hall & Son, Pigou Wilks & Laurence, Hay Merricks & Co, Ballincollig Royal Gunpowder Works Ltd, The Midlothian Gunpowder Company, The Kennal Vale Gunpowder Co, the East Cornwall Gunpowder Co, and The War and Smokeless Powder company were all merged and traded under the Curtis’s & Harvey name.

In November 1918, The Explosives Trade Ltd was formed through rationalization and closure of the following (but not including all):
Bickford Smith & Co (fuses)
Chilworth Gunpowder Co
Curtis’s & Harvey
E.C Powder Co Ltd
Eley Bros Ltd
Elterwater Gunpowder Co
Kings Norton Metal Co Ltd
Kynoch Ltd
National Explosives Ltd
Nobel Explosives Ltd (including Birmingham Metal & Ammunition Co & 12 other companies)
Etc. (7 other companies).

Some of the brands and names were carried on after each amalgamation and merger if the brand and name carried significant market share (similar to mergers and purchases these days).

The 1935/36 ICI catalogue still lists Kynoch percussion caps, EC Smokeless powder, Nobel’s Empire Powder, Schultze Gunpowder and Sporting Ballistite, and Curtis’s & Harvey powders. These were long after the names of the companies disappeared. Many of the shotshells were still listed as loaded with many of these powders even though the corporate entity no longer existed.

This may help but it probably muddies the water for you.

Cheers,
Will.


#9

[quote=“powdertin”]Hi JP and Vince.

In November 1918, The Explosives Trade Ltd was formed through rationalization and closure of the following (but not including all):
Bickford Smith & Co (fuses)
Chilworth Gunpowder Co
Curtis’s & Harvey
E.C Powder Co Ltd
Eley Bros Ltd
Elterwater Gunpowder Co
Kings Norton Metal Co Ltd
Kynoch Ltd
National Explosives Ltd
Nobel Explosives Ltd (including Birmingham Metal & Ammunition Co & 12 other companies)
Etc. (7 other companies).

Cheers,
Will.[/quote]

Hello Will

First at all thanks for the info.

  1. Have you a document proofing C&H joigned Eley and Kynoch in 1918 to become the Explosives Trade Ltd ?

As I told you on some internet sites (or books) they say like you, on some other sites they say only in 1925 when Explosives trade Ltd became Nobel Industries Ltd !!!

  1. another company giving me headache is Birmingham Metal and Ammunition company. I have almost nothing about it, except the fact they manufactured also shotshells.
    If I understand well they have nothing to do with Kynoch before 1918 ,

JP


#10

Birmingham Metals and Munitions Company were part of BSA, started by them around 1876(?) at Adderley Park as their ammunition division, until they merged with Kynoch who almost immediately shut them down.
Search BSA+EARLY+HISTORY although details are scant.


#11

Hello Jean-Pierre,

The Explosives Trades Limited was formed in november 1918 and changed name to Nobel Industries Ltd. in December 24, 1920.

The formation of this firm and a list of incorporated companies (including Curtis’s & Harvey, Ltd.) is reported in The Times, December 2, 1918.

Another document dated 1920 says in regards of the companies joined under the title “Explosive Trades Limited”: “They will preserve their old identity -Kynoch, Eley, Curtis’s & Harvey, and so on, but each will assist the others in improving powder, cartridges and manufacturing processes” (sic).

A document dated 1921 list “Curtis’s & Harvey, Ltd.” following a text saying “Among these companies are the following, of which Nobel Industries, Ltd. own practically the entire capital stock” (sic).