CZ Model 1922 9mm NICKL

I am wondering about the ammunition for the CZ model 1922 / vzor-22 pistol. I saw and handled a CZ model 1922 pistol that is now on Gun Broker # 793501452. It is marked 9mmN which I was told stands for special Czeck. 9 x 17 cartridge 9mm Nickl. I cannot find out much about this cartridge. I found in the 1948 Volume one NRA Book of Small Arms PISTOLS & REVOLVERS By Walter H. B. Smith. page 379 “it uses a special Czeck cartridge listed by the Germans as “9 mm. Pist. Patr. M. 22 (t).” This cartridge (which also fits some of the standard pattern CZ revolving breech pistols) will not normally chamber in the .380 type, the rear case dimensions being greater.” Other sources that I have checked do not give information on the Check 9mm N. or say 9mm short with * same as .380 ACP.
In the 1922 that I saw we tried a 380 dummy and the back end seemed loose but seemed to chamber and eject. Will the .380 auto function in the CZ 1922? The 1922 seems to be very rare as I have seen production numbers from 1800 to 6000.

Czech sources indicate that the 1922 CZ Pistol was, from the start, chambered and with breech face for the standard 9 mm Short (.380 auto cartridge), and in fact, the designation of the 9 mm Short cartridge in Czechoslovakia was Nabojev vz. 1922. The early 1924-dated cartridge (as I recall. I don’t have one in my collection) had that designation on the headstamp and was a standard .380 Auto cartridge.

It is possible that the “N” on the M1922 CZ pistol simply stands for Naboyev (Cartridge).

For me, the mystery has always been that the rebated-rim cartridges known as 9 mm Nickl are alll German manufacture, I believe, and since the Mauser Nickl-patent pistols are incredibly rare - I would guess only prototypes - and yet the cartridges, even today, are reltively common. Of course, the Mauser Nickl Patent pistol basically became the CZ vz 1922 then slightly changed from the vz 1922 to the vz 1924 CZ pistol…

I hav3e never found any satisfactory explanation for the “why” of the rebated rim 9 mm Nickl cartridge, including anything to say it was ever really designated as that. The Mauser Nickl Patent Pistol goes back to 1916 and the rebated rim ammo is known from 1918 with dated “H” headstamps, representing the Rheinsich Metallwaaren factory at Düsseldorf.

If anyone has any real documentation on this cartridge, I hope they will enlighten us on this Forum.

John Moss

Thanks JohnMoss, You have enlightened me a lot. I had assumed that the 9mm N was probably a shortened 9 x 19 Luger and had never heard of the rebated rim. The thing that surprised me most was that it is not mentioned in Erlmeier-Brandt Volume 1. I am looking forward more enlightenment on this. I also looked at the CZ1924 Pistol and that is marked for .380 as I recall.

just a post on the topic
from my collection:
9 mm vz 22
9%20vz22 9%20vz%2022

Zbrojovka Brno, Československo, 1937
R1-9,42 mm
P1-9,40 mm

9 mm Nickl
9%20Nickl 9%20Nickl%202


Deutsche Werke A-G, Berlin

R1- 9,05 mm
P1-9,50 mm

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Erlmeier-Brandt Volume 1 is an out of date book, lots of things in it have been updated in the last of the series which is a compilation of the three original volumes. It was done solely by Heer Brandt.

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Many updates were also in Voume III of the original Erlmeier-Brandt Series. It does intimate, however, that the CZ vz. 1922 pistol was chambered and with breech face for the rebated rim cartridge, and I disagree with that. The STANDARD 9 mm Short (.380 Auto) cartridge is designated as Nabojev vz. 1922. To my knowledge, the rebated-rim cartridge referred to as the 9 mm Nickl was never manufactured in Czechoslovakia. All of the known cartridges are of German manufacture.

John Moss

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Thanks JohnMoss,
I guess I need the updated Erlmeier-Brandt Vol 3. I would like to find a single specimens of the rebated rim 9mm (Nickl) and the 9mm vs 22

John Moss once told me, to the best of my failing memory, that the Nickl pistol was made to be converted easily from one caliber to another. It seems likely that the rebated rim that matches the 7.65mm Browning cartridge could be to enable this conversion. Still, that doesn’t explain the rarity of the gun ( I couldn’t find it mentioned on Google) and the relative abundance of the ammunition. The dates on the known dated cartridges indicate they were made well before the CZ 22 pistol was in development.

I once speculated that these cartridges were intended for use in a conversion of one of the German 7.65mm Browning pistols to a 9mm cartridge late in the war, but I can’t find a bit of evidence that such a conversion was considered, much less developed.

I agree with John that the cartridge we call the 9mm Nickl has nothing to do with either the Mauser experimental Nickl pistol, nor the CZ 22. I think that is what John said!!!

Cheers,
Lew

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Lew,

I don’t know if the Nickl cartridge has anything to do with the Nickl pistol, or not. I do, think, though, that it had little or nothing to with the Vz. 22 Pistol, even though that handgun was based on the Mauser Nickl-Patent pistol.

Regarding conversion from one caliber to another, I would discount the Germans converting 7.65 mm Browning Pistols to 9 mm Short. In truth, it was the other way around.
They used the CZ vz. 27 in .32, and I believe were responsible for changing the Hungarian Femaru from 9 mm Short to 7.65 mm Browning caliber. The 9 mm Kurz was never as popular in Germany as was the 7.65 mm Browning. We can see that from all the 7.65 mm Pistols made in Germany as opposed to the far fewer versions in 9 mm Kurz. It can even be seen in pre-WWII pistols like the Walther PP and PPK models, which were produced in 7.65 mm in larger numbers than were the same pistols in 9 mm Kurz caliber. After assuming control of Beretta late in the war, they made the Model 1934 (as opposed to the Model 1935) in 7.65 mm Browning-caliber as well. There may be other examples. Most of the 9 mm Kurz pistols were used were of non-German manufacture - in short, captured pistols or pistols where after their occupation of the factories involved, were already on the production line in the 9 mm K caliber.

In short, I think your later thoughts on the conversions, as you expressed above, were pretty much “spot on.”

I think we have a long way to go on learning about the so-called “9 mm Nickl” cartridge. I tried researching that once, with the intention of an IAA Journal article, and got no where with it after six months or more of trying to compile information.

John M.

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John,
I agree with you that the German Military preferred the 7,65mm B pistols, but a conversion from 9mmK to 7.65mmB would not result in a rebated rim, and it seems to me that such an attempt is possible.

Cheers,
Lew

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Lew, Possible - yes! Probable - No. As I said, all the known conversions, done in the actual production of pistols, was the other way, from 9 mm K to 7.65 mm B. If anyone has ever seen, or even heard, of a pistol originally in 7.65 mm Browning converted by the Germans during the period of the 3rd Reich or even before, please let us know. I am not talking here about “one of” efforts by the local gunsmith.

John M.

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In retrospect, I decided to add to my last answer. I know quite well that converting a 7.65 mm B pistol to 9 mm Browning Short would not result in a rebated rim. Can’t find on this thread any mention that it would. While the rim diameters of the two cartridges are similar (.347 to .357" for the 7.65 and .354" to .373" for the 9mm Short), they are not identical. They often will interchange in breech faces, and with the entire cartridge, in magazines. FN-Browning Model 1910 and Model 1922 pistol magazines are found marked on one side 7.65 mm and on the other side of the same magazine box, 9 mm. I have tried many of these and they do interchange with the two cartridges in their respective pistols.

I have seen conversions of the Colt Model 1903 .32 ACP Pistol to .380 Auto, and to the best of my recollection, about all that was required was a new barrel and new magazine, and I am not even sure of the latter. In the FN pistols mentioned, only a barrel seems to be necessary to convert from 7.65 to 9 mm Court. But, in the case of both pistol types, Colt and FN, these were individual conversions done by gunsmiths at a client’s request. I don’t know of any official conversion of either gun for military or police use.

John M.

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I used to think that the so-called “9 mm Nickl” cartridge was possibly made and/or modified to fit Ortgies cal. 7.65 mm Browning pistols with a 9 mm barrel. This idea came to me after I saw the Ortgies & Co. 1919 catalog, where the 7,65 mm model is described but the “9 mm” caliber is only mentioned in the shape of additional barrels interchangeable in pistols of the former caliber (early magazines are also interchangeable and marked with both calibers). However, nothing indicates if this early 9 mm barrel was made for the “Nickl” cartridge or the .380 Auto (9 mm kurz), so this remains a conjecture.

Later Ortgies pistol were undoubtely made for the latter cartridge and some Ortgies cartridge boxes are marked accordingly: “Ortgies Browning Bayard Colt u.s.w. 9 mm kurz 380 Auto”. DWA boxes are simply marked: “ORTGIES .380-9 m/m”.

Regards,

Fede

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Good information, as usual, Fede! I knew, of course, that Ortgies (D.W.A.) made pistols in both 7.65 mm Browning and 9 mm Kurz, but this is the first I have ever heard of the company offering conversion barrels in 9 mm K for converting 7.65 mm pistols of their make.

I agree with you that the 9 mm Nickl factor in this is still conjecture. I will have to take a look at my Ortgies boxes. No sure what I have, but it is not many.

Salud. Felices Navidades.

John M.

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John,
Since the dated “9mm Nickl” is from 1918, I seriously doubt that it has any relevance to a 3rd Reich pistol.

When I measure the two cartridges there is only about 0,5mm difference in the rim diameter. I don’t have a 9mm Nickl handy to measure. The 9mmK I measured have a ~ 9,4mm rim The dimensions in Brandt lists a rim of 9.0-9.5mm and a case head of 9.38-9.5mm. Based on these measurements the 9mmK sometimes has a slightly rebated rim. He lists the rim on the 9mm Nickl as 9mm but the case head daimeter as basically the same as the 9mmK. He lists the rim on the 7.65B as 8.95mm to 9.1mm which places his Nickl rim measurement in the middle of the 7,65mmB range.

I agree that many, perhaps most, bolt faces on 7.65mm pistols would accommodate a 9mmK, unless the extractor position and shape was a problem or the bolt face is recessed in such a manner that it can’t accept the 9mmK rim. Some 7.65mm B pistols, like the German Stock,have a recessed bolt face that will not accommodate the rim of a 9mmK cartridge being only 9.2mm on the specimens I measured in my collection. The H&R , the Star and the Little Tom all have recessed bolt faces, but they are difficult to measure. The Little Tom’s recessed bolt face appears wide enough to accomodate a 9mmK but I cannot be sure. Of the more common German WWI Officers pistols, my Dreyse, Jager and the Langenhan pistols all have recessed bolt faces. The Bayard 1908 pistols that was made under German occupation during WWI have a partially recessed bold face. These were apparently produced in both 7.65mmB and 9mmK before WWI, but I don’t know of any Bayard pistols in 9mmK made under German occupation. It is interesting that the company that produced the most common 9mm Nickl rounds (hst H 4 18) is also the company that managed Pieper-Bayard during WWI.

As I said above I have speculated that a trial conversion of one of the WWI pistols from 7.65B to 9K was a possibility, and I have only offered it as speculation given the lack of other more practical explanations for the number of 9mm “Nickl” cartridges that turn up. Clearly quite a few were made and survived, as compared to German 9mmP08 steel case rounds that, based on the existence of an Army type box got at least as far as field trials.

I am a long ways from proposing this as the answer, and would be interested in other explanations for these 9mmK rebated rim cartridges from the end of WWI.

Cheers,
Lew

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Regarding 9 mm kurz in Germany after WW1, please keep in mind that, because being 9 mm, it was considered a military cartridge by the Inter-Allied Control Commission and therefore it was illegal to possess a cartridge or a handgun in this caliber, while 7.65 Browning was legal.

According to what I have learned about inventors and designers, I would not rule out that some designer thought the 9 mm kurz would become a much better cartridge if it only had a rebated rim. In my experience, many inventors/designers have pet ideas that they stick to, whatever others think. I think the rebated rim of 9 mm Nickl is an example of such a pet idea for which no real engineering explanation exists. By the way, in Czechoslovakia 9 mm was of course not illegal at all.

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Lew - I did not mention anything about the 9 mm Nickl being relevant, or not, to the 3rd Reich or even the Weimar Republic era. Of course it has no relevance to those eras. I was talking in general terms about the possibility of conversions of pistols by Germany, where the 9 mm Kurz (.380 Auto - NOT the 9 mm rebated rim cartridge referred to as “Nickl”) was not an especially common cartridge. The comparison of the 9 mm Browning Short (again, NOT the 9 mm Nickl) to the 7.65 mm Browning, as to conversion or adaption of any German pistol of any era c.1908 to c. 1945, IS relevant.

John

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John,
I had no intent to criticize with my comment. I was overly focused on the 9mm Nickl question.

Fede,
Your comments on the Ortgies pistol is extremely interesting. I had not thought about this because I considered the 9mm Nickl (better referred to as the “9mmK rebated rim” or “9mmKrr”) as a WWi product. The only dated round was made by Rheinische Metallwaren, Dusseldorf with the case dated April 1918. That made me focus on the Pieper-Bayard M1908 pistol which was being produced in a factory that, under occupation, was managed by Rheinische Metallwaren, Dusseldorf. Pieper had produced the M 1908 pistol in 9mmK before the war and may have been looking for a cheap way to produce M1908s in 9mm for whatever reason, but using a maxium of the 7.65mm M 1908s they were producing for the German miliary.

There are some interesting boxes from this period that were apparently loaded by Pieper (Their WWI German assigned code was “Pi”).

The most commonly encountered is the 9mmP08 box like the one below which was loaded with H headstamp case. The typical German Army label indicates it was loaded for the military. The case and primer are identified as produced by RM in Desseldorf, but the round was apparently loaded by Pi (Pieper) in Belgium in 1918. All P08 boxes with this style label I have documented are identified as having RM-D cases with H headstamp.

There are also military boxes of P08 ammunition loaded by the RM plant in Dusseldorf like the one below.
image

These are just background. Pieper also loaded (according to the boxes) both 9mm Browning Long and 9mm Kurz during the war.

image

image

Both of these boxes have labels indicating that the cases (Hulsen) are made by Pieper, but no “Pi” headstamped rounds have ever been documented. The cartridges in the 9mm BL box have the “H” headstamp with the month and year.

The 9mm Kurz box is sealed but it likely also has the “H” headstamp. I would not be surprised is these cartridges have a rebated rim. Perhaps John Moss or someone can tell us whether an “H” headstamped 9mmK round exists from 1918 with a normal rim?

Just for completeness, the box below is also a Pieper load, but from 1917 and the label indicates that the case should be by Spandau headstamped with an S code.
image

Fede, After your comment above, I checked on Ortgies pistols and learned that some interesting things on website https://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Ortgies/ortgies.html
Heinrich Ortgies organized his firm under the name Ortgies & Company probably in 1919, but it could have been earlier. Reportedly, Ortgies bought the design of his pistol from a German gunsmith named Karl August Brauning. Brauning reportedly worked for Fabrique Nationale in Liege, Belgium. Pieper of course was located in Liege. Ortgies sold his business to Deutsche Werke (DWA) in 1921. The reference above indicates that:

Ortgies & Company made only pistols chambered for 7.65mm Browning (.32 ACP), though it is clear that Heinrich Ortgies, from the beginning, also intended to produce pistols in 9mm Browning Short (.380 ACP) and 6.35mm (.25 ACP). The Tillig article displays the cover of the Ortgies manual showing a first-variant pistol, which says: “Die Ortgies- Selbstladepistole Kal. 9, 7,65 und 6,35 mm Patentiert in allen Kulturstaaten” (Patented in all civilized countries). In addition, Tillig also mentions an article by Gerhard Bock in the Waffenschmied for 25 March 1920. Bock reports that (at the time) the pistol is only produced in 7.65mm but will also be produced in 9mm and 6.35mm.

As it turns out, the only other 9mmKrr (9mm Nickl) headstamp I know of is “DWA *”.

Pure speculation, but perhaps both Pieper and Ortgies were looking for a low cost method of adapting their 7.65mm pistol designs for 9mmK, and the use of a rebated rim version of the 9mmK offered advantages. If this is true, the development of a Pieper adaptation, must have been going on in early 1918 based on the date of the ammunition, and the Brauning may have been working on his design of a multiple caliber pistol which he sold to Ortiges. Apparently Brauning owned Ortgies pistol 01 and brought it with him when he immigrated to the US. I wonder if the pistol would hold any hints or perhaps any papers that came with it?

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would make a 9mmK round with the rim diameter of a 7.65mmB except to adapt a 7.65mm weapon to fire the 9mmK. The story above is just speculation on one possibility.

I would be delighted to hear other theories for the 9mmKrr cartridge!!!

Cheers,
Lew

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I just looked into my files, most of which on this subject were acquired in my six-month search for an answer to the 9 mm Nickl question, years ago, with the idea of an article for ICCA on the cartridge. The six months of research didn’t net me enough useful information on the 9 mm Nickl cartridge, itself, to write a good photo caption of the cartridge!!! It did cause me to obtain information on some of the pistols at the time. Because of the revelation to me (I actually had information on it in my files, but did not recall that) of the proposed 9 mm conversion barrel for the Ortgies Pistols.

While it is true that the company of Heinrich Ortgies only produced their pistol in 7.65 mm, after the Deutsche Werke A.G. bought the patents and machines in 1921, the 6.35 mm and 9 mm (.380) versions were produced beginning in 1922. The most variations of the so-called 9 mm Nickl round seem to have been made by DWA A.G., but they are not dated, so it is hard to know if the Ortgies pistols were ever made in that particular case type. One must consider, though, that despite the variations of D.W.A. 9 mm rebated rim cartridges, they do not seem to have ever made convention 9 mm Kurz (.380) rounds (without rebated rim). That seems odd, but then there are also “D” headstamp Geco, and R.M.S. that are not dated. It also seems odd that they would resurrect a cartridge made some five years earlier by Rheinische Metallwaaren Düsseldorf, whose cartridges, although the April 1918 was not the only dated round. I have dates for March 1918 and June 1918 in my collection. To answer Lew’s question, no, I have not seen the dated “H” headstamp in a standard .380/9 mm Kurz case type (without rebated rim) although I do have an R.M.S headstamp .380 cartridge in my collection, as well as the rebated rim version of the same headstamp (both undated). A German publication (relatively modern) on the Düsseldorf factory shows all the 1918 dates to be 9 mm Kurz, but in my view, that is plainly an error, unless the rebated rim version as ACTUALLY, in the eyes of the makers, simply a 9 mm Kurz round, and this is not likely due to both rebated rim and non-rebated rim types, with the same Geco “D” headstamp and the “RMS” headstamp being found on both types.

The Ortgies production of the .380 caliber pistols and, presumably, the “conversion barrels” in that caliber, ended pretty quickly, since they were adjudged to be violations of the “Contract” of Versailles (so written in a brief Ortgies history I have - I would call it the Treaty of Versailles) so production was forbidden. Regardless, many thousands of .380 Caliber Ortgies were manufactured. It would seem that the 1918 dated Düsseldorf cartridges could not relate to the Ortgies Pistols as they are five years earlier than Ortgies of the 9 mm Short variety.

Regarding any real, documented history for the rebated-rim version of the .380/9 mm Kurz round, in my view it is right back to when I researched the subject and came up with no satisfactory answers. I hope maybe this thread will spark enough interest for others - logically, from the German group - to come up with some answers that are not pure speculation. I have none myself. Even dates for the manufacture of those cartridges, undated, from Geco, R. M. Sömmerda and D.W.A. would be a big step forward in trying to figure this confusion out.

John Moss

.

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Great stuff John. I believe that the two efforts,RM Dusseldorf, and DWA must be related.

By any chance did RM Dusseldorf become part of DWA after WWI???

I suspect that a rebated rim 9mmK would work in a 9mmK pistol just as well as the normal rimless version, which, according to Brandts data could have a somewhat rebated rim and still be within the allowed range of dimensions.

The Pieper 9mmK 1917 box (which the owner acquired empty) apparently used S headstamp cases. Has anyone seen a 1917 S headstamp 9mmK with or without a rebated rim???

John, what are the actual Geco and RMS headstamos. I assume one is Geco D 9mmK D and the other is RM * S * with or without a dot around the S, either on the top left of the bottom right. A description of these two headstamps may help date them.

One significant fact it that John, who has seen most everything in autopistol ammo, has not seen an H (month) (year) headstamp without the rebated rim. That means that the box shown in my post almost surely contains rebated rim cartridges, and they are designated 9mmK!!!

Many thanks John. Great info!!!

I suspect there is enough here for an ECRA article to raise the questions.

Cheers,
Lew

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