Czech 7.62 x 54mm Grenade cartridge


#1

Does the white tip on this Czech 7.62mm cartridge identify it as a Rifle Grenade cartridge? I have a similar round but without the white tip, which I think is the normal ‘7.62 Cv’ blank, so I am guessing the white tip differentiates between the two.


#2

This is what I have been lead to beleive as well. All of the normal blank cartridges I have seen in this caliber from Czechoslovakia have had no tip color.

My question remains unanswered though… Why would they need Grenade cartridges and in what weapon were they used in? I do not beleive the Czechs. ever fielded any 7.62x54r weapons aside from machineguns.

AKMS


#3

All we can say for sure is that this is a Czechoslovak case but this does not mean it is a Czechoslovak load. East Germany used to load cases (they had no own production and imported cases from several WAPA countries) as tool propelling cartridges. The one here is most likely one of these though without having the box or better crate it came out of we will have no 100% confirmation.


#4

Thank you both. My knowledge of Warsaw Pact weaponary is non-existant but I’m wondering whether this could have been supplied to Bulgaria. I’m suggesting this because I got the cartridge from John Munnery and the vast majority of his cartridges have a Bulgarian link somewhere along the line. Did Bulgaria use a 7.62 x 54mm rifle?


#5

Bulgaria made it’s own cases in this caliber + they had no rifle grenades to fire.


#6

Are there any known examples of East Germany using Czech cases in any caliber? I know they used 7.62x54r cases from several other countries for their practice ammunition, but I have never seen a Czech. one…

The crimp is identical to normal Czech blank cartridges, so the only distinction appears to be the white tip color. I never weighed my specimen to see if it is heavier than a normal blank…

As I recall, Poland used a white tip to identify grenade cartridges, at least in 7.62x39mm. Maybe these were made for them?

But, again, who was using 7.62x54r rifles to launch rifle grenades post WWII?

AKMS


#7

[quote=“AKMS”]

As I recall, Poland used a white tip to identify grenade cartridges, at least in 7.62x39mm. Maybe these were made for them?

AKMS[/quote]

I’m thinking that Bulgaria probably also marked its grenade cartridges with a white tip…I have a white-tipped 7.62 x 39mm blank with a headstamp of ‘10 77’.


#8

Jim, My white tipped “10 77” blank was a “movie blank” made from a normal ball cartridge case. I do not think it was a Bulgarian produced item. Reportly made in Germany, but I think it is a “fake” as it looks poorly done and I think it is too short to reliably feed in an AK type rifle.

Does yours have an extended neck?

AKMS


#9

[quote=“Jim”]

I’m thinking that Bulgaria probably also marked its grenade cartridges with a white tip…I have a white-tipped 7.62 x 39mm blank with a headstamp of ‘10 77’.[/quote]

Still no rifle grenades in Bulgaria…


#10

[quote=“AKMS”]

Does yours have an extended neck?

AKMS[/quote]

I wish I could say it does but no, mine too could have been made from a ball case.


#11

AKMS - I have a small collection of metallic cartridges from the DDR, perhaps a bit over 300 specimens. The only 7.62 x 54R rounds I have are practice ball and practise tracer. They are loaded in Bulgarian (1 only), and Hungarian cases (Arsenals 21 and 11, with orientation of the date indicating the “21” rounds are Hungarian, not Polish). I also have some steel gauges (in German, “Stahlpatronen”) but they are made in the DDR and don’t relate to anything here. I have never encountered one loaded in a Czech case.

However, the DDR did load some 7.9 x 57 mm Platzpatrone (blanks) in older Czech brass cases; those with the geometric symbols on their headstamps. All of the DDR steel-case blanks of 7.9 x 57 that I have encountered, though, are in “04” DDR cases.

By the way, there is a known “04” 7.62 x 54R case, but they are very, very rare. It looks like they were planning to make the case but gave up on it. There is a pcture of one in Gerd Mischinger’s fine book on the Königswartha Factory of the DDR Plant 04). Wish I had one.


#12

John, when this thread started I was about to ask how to differentiate a Czechoslovakian blank from a DDR blank made from Czechoslovakian cases (both without paint). This is the DDR box marked “15 Stück 7,62 mm Platzpatronen (201)”:


#13

I noted that there is a Czechoslovakian 7.62x54R blank cartridge made for a civilian tool designated PN-50 and the crimp was identified by means of white paint (at least one specific load, I suppose). This would be the same tool for which VEB Spreewerk Lübben had made blank cartridges with crimps painted with different colors, but I’m not aware of one of these loading using white. As EOD says, without having taking this cartridge from a box is very hard to tell.


#14

Fede, yes, the colors do indicate the charge weight.

Here some East German ones:

By the way, the GDR also used a variant with 7.62x39 cases for the BSG-725 nail driver which was also used in the military.


#15

Alex, thanks, nice to learn that there is also a DDR tool blank painted white. Are those three made from Hungarian cases?


#16

Fede - the box for the DDR 7.62 x 54R blank, which I have never seen before and do not have in my collection, is about the same as that for the 7.9 x 57 mm blanks.

EOD - more 7.62 x 54Rs of the DDR that I never have seen.

Well, I said I had a small collection! Haven’t added a round to it in about four years, to boot. A lot of the DDR ammo seems to have completely dried up.


#17

My limited knowledge about them is:

blue:
10 89 (CCS)
23 53 S (CCS)

black:
10 89 (CCS)

white:
17 Д (CCS)
bxn 65 (LS)
bxn 72 (brass)
bxn 87 (CCS)
ZV 77 (CCS)
ZV 73 (brass)

green:
21 73 (CCS)
21 77 (LS)
21 79 (LS)

yellow:
23 53 S (CCS)

The yellow one is the only I have seen coming out of an original GDR marked box. All others were stray.


#18

If my memory serves me well the Czechoslovakian blanks of the time had no crimp seal while those cases loaded in DDR at 201 have a wax crimp seal.
Hans


#19

I have weighed both rounds. The ‘regular’ blank without the seal weighs in at 168.4gn. The white-tipped blank is considerably heavier at 198.2gn.


#20

Alex & Hans, thanks for the information.