Czech 9mm Kurz-Under German Occupation


#1

Rolf Foerster sent me a photo of an interesting box of 9mm Kurz ammunition. The label indicates it is made by S&B under German occupation. Most of the cases are S&B and dated 1940, but there are three 1937 and one 1938 headstamps. There are also seven “Z” headstamped cartridges all from 1940. there is no way to tell if all of these are original to the box or not.

Makes me wonder if the German’s packed Czech pre-War II 9x19mm or 9x23mm is similar boxes. Has anyone seen anything like this before.

Cheers,

Lew


#2

Lew, I think it is a mixed box.

Some other labels.

Rgds


#3

The Period March 1939 to the late 1940-early 1941 Period in German Occupied Czechoslovakia ( at least the Bohmen und Mahren/Sudeten regions) was a period of “flux” for the various Czech Military Industries.

The ZB plant(s) were undergoing the “t” transition of SA designation and design Changes, and the Ammunition Factories ( S&B, “Z” ) were supplying, for the most part, Police and “non-Wehrmacht” German Forces, using the old, pre-1939 headstamps, even though the labels were in the German Style, but not yet completely “Military”.

IN this “re-organisation” it would be not abnormal for ammo to be “repacked”, to suit the User, from what was available; even from different Plants; BY the end of 1940, both S&B and the “Z” plants were supplying the Wehrmacht, and using the “P Code” numbers assigned to them, and using typical German Military Packet labelling.
But the “Commercial” production of S&B kept producing Ammo ( esp. 9mm and 7,9mm for both the SS and for specific Exports ( ie, Sweden).

THis would include supplies of 9x17K for mostly Internal Police use and secondary Wehrmacht use ( Czech Pistols were widely distributed in the Wmt.).
Of course, by 1943, the “Z” plant, formerly of Bratislava, by then at Povaska Bystrica,(Slovakia)which had assumed the “dou” code indicator, and was combined with the ZB Small Arms Facility there ( also “dou”), was fully engaged in Wehrmacht production.
I have not seen any “Z” marked SAA of any calibre HS after 1940…not even in shell cases retrieved from Russian Front battlefield digs ( where Waffen SS were known to be located- the SS still sourced its ammo from “non-Wehrmacht HS” sources). BY 1943, under the new Munitions Minister(Speer) the Supply chains were unified, and the SS received exactly the same ammo as the Wehrmacht.

If anyone has an example of a Post-1940 “Z” headstamp or packet, I would aprreciate it being shown on this thread. S&B did continue some small “commercial” supplies up to the end of the war (Romania, etc) with the “S&B” H/s. (Mostly Pistol ammo).

Nice to get away from the usual 9 para and 7,9 packets and HS.

Regards,
Doc AV
A V Ballistics.


#4

Doc - While not particularly common, “Z” headstamps DO appear on small arms ammo dated after
1940. I don’t collect dates in auto pistol (I did in 7.9 x 57mm) but I have 19/Z/44/III in 9 mm VZ 22 (.380 Auto) and Z St 1 42 in steel-cased 9 mm Parabellum (SmE with black bullet).

In 7.9 x 57 mm I have 19/Z/41/XI/ in ball, and then 19/Z/42/I/ and 19/Z/42/XI/ in SmK. In the German-style headstamp, mostly made for Sweden, I have Z St 1 42, 2 42, 3 42, 20 42 and 29 42. Other lot numbers are know in those rounds, of course.

From 1946 on, the “Z” headstamp appears more often.

Regarding the box Lew has, I feel that it is a mixed box also, that is, that the contents are not necessarily all original to the box. I think, knowing German labeling, that there would be some acknowledgment of mixed lots and dates on the label, otherwise. Just my own opinion. It would be nice to hear from one of the Czech collectors on this.

Dutch, you naughty boy. You are a 7.9 collector. Stop showing us all that beautiful non-7.9 stuff you have been putting on the Forum! : ) Just kidding - keep it coming.

See you all in St. Louis afterall.


#5

Hi collectors,
some more photos of boxes:

  • left white box is pre-war II - original czechoslovak for pistols mod. 22 and 24
  • right box is made 1940 with Z headstamp

boxes are still unopened, so I cannot take a photo of cartrtidges…

  • blue/gray box - 1943 with ak headstamp - S&B Vlasim, WW2 during german occupation

#6

In year 1929 polish Ministerstwo Finansów (Ministry of the Treasury?) ordered in Ceska Zbrojovka Pistolet CZ wz.28 with ammo 9x17 vz.22 for used in Straż Graniczna (Border Guard?)

more info about this in english:
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/polish-armed-forces-second-republic-si-y-zbrojne-ii-rzeczypospolitej-polskiej-1918-1939/pistols-rifles-machine-guns-and-crew-served-weapons-of-partitioned-poland-and-the-polish-2nd-republic-181504-2/

Question:ammunition for this weapon was buy in original box with tchech inscription (like in picture from user sig210) or was exist limited version with polish inscription???

PJB