Danish 9 x 23mm Bergmann-Bayard Box Dated 1942


#1

IMG_5217a

Product of Hærens Laboratorium (Army Laboratory), 1942 dated cartridge cases loaded in 1942. Cupronickel-jacketed bullet.

According to Arma-Dania Partroner (https://www.arma-dania.dk/public/timeline/_ad_patroner_view.php?editid1=33 ) cartridge cases dated 1942 were “Last made headstamp. Cartridges loaded the last year of production, 1943, were made with these cases.”

John Moss in his book entitled THE 9X23mm RIMLESS PISTOL CARTRIDGES , on page 28 pictures a box dated 1944 but the contents of the box were missing so the date on the headstamp of the cartridges original to the box are unknown.

Brian


#2

Brian - The 1944-dated box would indicate the the Dania site is incorrect,
and that the last loading in Denmark of the Bergmann-Bayard round was
in 1944. I have the “44” box in my own collection. While empty, I think
it is safe to assume that the headstamp of the rounds was 19 (Crown) 42 HA.

As you probably noted, in all my research, I only found three different headstamps,
including the dates on them. The dates, each with different headstamp content, are:

H L 34
H A 38
19 (Crown) 42 HA

The research included a search of Scandinavian collections, other American collections,
including that of Woodin Laboratory, and a very fine German collection. Up to 1933,
the Danish rounds had no headstamp, but we now have a label copy of a box from
patronerede i Laboratorieværkstedet, Denmark which was not mentioned in the book.

The earliest loadings were bought from Anciens Établissements Pieper (AEP) in Belgium.
The first order was for 300,000 cartridges, and were packed in white 25-round boxes. The
second order, for the same amount of rounds, were packed in red boxes of the same
quantity, 25-round boxes. There was another order for 200,000 rounds in boxes holding
2 six-round clips for a total of twelve rounds, but it was never completed. While an AEP
headstamp exists, it was evidently for their own commercial sales, as the rounds sent
to Denmark were without headstamps. We did not have this information at the time the
book was completed.

I am ashamed to say that I cannot find my documentation, which as I recall was a series
of emails with one or more Scandinavian collectors. Therefore, I must consider the following
to be conjecture on my part. It seems clear from the fact that only after 1933, there were
only three runs of cases for the 9 x 23 mm Bergmann Bayard cartridge done in Denmark,
and that these cases, judging from many box labels, were loaded as needed over the
years until what was likely the final loading run in 1944. We firmly believe that were there
other dates, at least some of them would have shown up in the 80 or so years since the
first dated headstamp from Denmark. It almost cannot be coincidental that every major
collection has only 34, 38 and 42, a four-year spread between the years in each instance,
and no other dates are known to any of the collectors. Certainly, if someone has knowledge
of another Danish round with a date different from those three, a photograph proving existence
would be hugely appreciated.

John Moss


#3

John, at Moment I am abroad for a longer time and I will check than later, what headstamps I have.
Here a pic from 1917 box, all ammo without headstamp


#4

Forensic - thank you. Nice box. I have not yet been able to find
one of the early boxes marked only for the Model 1910 BB Pistol,
and not for the 1910/21 version, for my own collection.

Another piece of information, like some of the previous posting I
made from a Danish Collector (whom I will not name here as I
don’t know if he wants me to, but he knows who he is and I thank
him again for this information, sent to me not long after my book was published).

In 1915, Denmark’s ammunition factory purchased a lathe for turning the
extractor groove of the Belgian ammunition wider. So, these Belgian cartridges
can be found with both a narrow, and a wider extractor groove, the latter a
Danish alteration. Evidently, though, the original form with the narrower groove
is quite hard to find.

John Moss


#5

John,

The showed box contains several head stamps.

Without,
A cross
A cross HL 34
And the 19 (Crown) 42 HA

HAHA1

The Bergmann–Bayard model 1910 was adopted by the Danish military. To my information a total of 4,840 M1910 Bergmann Bayards was initially delivered to the Danish Army. The pistol was produced in Belgium until 1914.

By occupying the Bayard plant in WW1 the Germans, they also found an unknown number of pistols with holsters. These pistols were giving immediately to German troops.

The scare ammunition for these pistols was made by R.M.S.

Rgds
Dutch


#6

Dutch - the question I would have on the 1943 mixed contents box,
some of which are official reloads (X), is was the box sealed when
it was found, or open. If open, my thought would be that somewhere
along the line, it was refilled for whatever reason, perhaps not officially.
One would think that the correct headstamp for it would be the ones
dated “1942.” There is no way to know when the unheadstamped rounds
were made, but they are certainly much, much older than the box (1914-
1933), nor can one discern when the X cartridges were reloaded, which
of course could have been anytime right up to 1943, I would suppose.

Your information is correct on the amount of pistols delivered by AEP to
Denmark between 1911 and 1914. The pistol was officially adopted on
September 22, 1911, but was designated Pistol Pattern 1910. There is
some information that AEP continued production of the Bergmann-Bayard
Pistol until 1919, but not for Denmark, perhaps just commercially. Another
2204 pistols were manufactured in Denmark under a directive dated
February 11, 1922. It was modified slightly from those delivered from
Belgium, and as modified became the Pistol Pattern 1910/21. The first
group of 900 pistols are marked for the Army Manufacturing Arsenal in
Copenhagen, Hærens Tojhus (the “o” should have a diagnonal line thru
it, but for some reason, I cannot reproduce that letter-form here). A
Second group, manufactured in 1924-1915 was marked Hærens Rustkammer
(Army Storage Arsenal), which as far as I know, only represented a change of
the name of the manufacturing facility. The older AEP pistols were then
altered to the form of the 1910/21 over the years from 1922 to 1935, with
all of them so-altered according to official forces. Of course, as always happens
some missed the alteration. I had an original, unaltered M1910 in my own
collection years ago.

Reference: The Automatic Pistol In Denmark, by Donald Bady, The American
Rifleman, January 1959 Issue, pages 19-21.

Reference: The Belgian Pistol Used by Denmark, by Finn I. Nielsen, The American
Rifleman, September 1970 issue, pages 64-65

I also wrote an article for Shooting Times years ago on these Belgian/Danish pistols,
but unfortunately, misplaced my folder containing the Shooting Times magazines (3)
containing articles I wrote, and have been unable to find it since. Fortunately, I still
have a draft and most of the original photos I made for the article on the Bergmann-
Bayard.

John Moss


#7

Here’s a box from 12/07/1944.
Headstamp of all rounds: 19 (Crown) 42 HA
without reloading marks.
The box was sealed.


#8

Defender - that’s great! Thank you! This confirms what I believed the
contents of my own box (same date, by the way) originally held. Also
that what appears to be the last loading of this caliber was in 1944, and
not 1943 as previously reported.

John Moss


#9

I have come across a few 9mm rounds that according to this post need some clarification
Are these rounds considered 9mm Luger or 9+23 Bergmann Bayard the first I am sure according to the post
is a Danish Bergmann Bayard
1942 Crown HA the others are as follows
EAP 34
EAP 9mmP read primer annulus
RM 18 7 S
RM 17 9 S
RM 17 11 S
RM 18 10 S
RM 18 8 S
RM 17 2 S

Sherryl


#10

Danish 9mm Bergamnn cartridges are known with the following headstamps:

No heastamp
X headstamp (the first one repackaged)
HL over 34
HA over 38
And crown over HA stamped 1942


#11

Sheryl - some headstamps are duplicated between the 9 x 19 mm
Luger and the 9 x 23 mm Bergmann Bayard cartridges. Your question
cannot be answered with the information you gave. The two cartridges
are not related other than they are both 9 mm and they both have the
so-called Borchardt/Mauser 10 mm head. Case length of the 9 mm Para
is 19 mm; Bergmann-Bayard has a 23 mm case length. That makes them
simple to separate. Within the 9 x 23 mm cartridges it gets more complicated,
as the 9 mm Bergmann Mars, the 9 mm Bergmann-Bayard and the 9 x 23 mm
Steyr are not the same cartridges either, and are not generally interchangeable.

The headstamps you show as “EAP” should be read “AEP” for Anciens Etablissements
Pieper. The RM S headstamp style you show has been used on at least three different
case types - 9 x 19 mm Parabellum, 9 x 23 mm and 7.63 mm Mauser.

John Moss


#12

Thank you John you told me what I wanted to know I got somewhat confused over these RM rounds in
that box and yes this cartridge business can become pretty tricky at times thanks again and a thanks to
chickenthief for his reply
Sherryl