Date of First Rimless Cartridge?

Can anyone tell me the date and maker of the first rimless cartridge please.

Hello Dave,
This was recently discussed in the following link:



I am trying to date Hebler cartridges.

Dave, if you are still at the stage of dating Hebler cartridges then there may be something here for you.

Here are my notes and images on Hebler related info (including some speculations) from my database:

Professor Friedrich Wilhelm Hebler (1844-1932) was a mechanical engineer from Bern, Switzerland but spent most of his time in Austria. In collaboration with Karel Krnka, he developed the copper jacketed bullet along with advancements in bullet aero-dynamics.

From 1874 - 1891, Hebler carried out countless experiments conceming cartridge
design. He was particularly interested in what he called “the smallest caliber” and published a series of books on this subject from at least 1886 to at least 1894.
In his 1886 edition, he explains the difficulties of a caliber less than 7mm and seems to have landed on 7.5mm as the smallest practicable rifle caliber. By around 1891 he seems to have overcome the technical difficulties of a very small caliber and has now designed cartridges all the way down to 5mm.

Hebler registered DRP #28250 dated 5 February 1884 for a two piece case intended to assist in inserting compressed powder into a cartridge case. So as to increase bullet velocity.

Confirmed Hebler designs include:

9x56R Toledo-Hebler M1883 or M82: Based on MB case. Lorenz dated 1882 cases exist (Beutter3).

Several of his 7.5mm designs were used in the Belgiam Ammunition Trials of 1884-1889:

7.7X58R HEBLER M85 - Roth produced solid case 1885 ((aka 7.5x57R)
Also Lorenz case #303 : originally two piece case, Flat base, 1885

7.7X63R HEBLER - Lorenz case # 304 : Sold case - nks ?

7.7X60R HEBLER - originally two-piece cases 1886
= Hoyem CFR169. Lorenz case # ?

From 1885->he experimented with rimless 8mm cases. Around 1890 he moved onto small calibre (5-6.5mm) trials involving cases of many lengths and shapes:


DWM case no 294 series c1884-1885+ 9mm Experimental cartridges by Hebler ??

294 : ???
294A : 9.15X65R GSP59
{294B : 9.3X65R GSP60
{294B : 9.35x53.5R GSP61
294V : 9.3X60R GSP62
{294VI : 9.4x53.4R GSP63
{294VI : 11.93X53.5R GSP64
294VII : 9.4X57R GSP65
294VIII : 9.3X59.5R GSP66
294IX : 9X56.5R GSP67

c1885 - c1888
303 : 7.7X58R HEBLER M85
304 : 7.7X63R HEBLER

Also DWM case #344 and #349 were listed as for Lorenz Rifle.
8X58R LORENZ M87 (case #344 or #349)
9x68R Lorenz (LORENZ +KARLSRUHE+) <1889 ?? GSP33
9X63R HEBLER (LORENZ +KARLSRUHE+) <1889 (case #344 or #349)

9X56.5R Lorenz (L 1882 1X) = 294IX ? GSP67

A 7.5x57R cartridge made from 8x57R M88A with "PATR.FABR. + KARLSRUHE + " hs is referred to “M79/86 Hebler” but is likely to be post 1888. Probably confused with the 7.7X58R HEBLER M85 (aka 7.5x57R) - see M80

8 x 53 Hebler-Lorenz 1885 : " GR / . / . / 1887 /" GR# 237 ?
Buttweiler Collector’s Ammunition (02-3) [186]
Hebler, Freidrich. Das kleinste Kaliber, oder das zukünftige Infanteriegewehr. Müller. Zurich, Switzerland.

Vol 1 - 1886.

Vol 2 - 1891.

Brad, great post, thanks for sharing.

Ditto for Fede’s comment!


Thanks, but please keep in mind, that not all of these are confirmed ‘Hebler’ designs but several ‘unknowns’ that fitted their pattern and somehow it lead me to the Lorenz DWM 294 series of cartridges. This was just an attempt a few years ago to make sense of these and it is by no means complete. It doesn’t cover the multitude of the more modern Hebler rimless, rimmed and maybe belted cartridges from the 1870’s, many of which were shown in the excellent “AUSTRIAN MILITARY CARTRIDGES (2 Vols) by Josef Mötz”.

Dear WBD,
Who are you please?
I am learning who initials are and names.
Please contact me at
David Andrew

Hebler published a third volume (designated “Anhang 1”) of his book in 1894.
Bavarian State Library (Bayerische Staatsbibliothek) in Munich has a copy.

Does anyone know if the books were printed in English? Is it still possible to find copies? They would make for very interesting reading.

Tau are you looking for “AUSTRIAN MILITARY CARTRIDGES (2 Vols) by Josef Mötz”? They are not in English but have the many photograph’s captions in German and English plus there is a chapter summary in English as the end of each chapter. Excellent & worthwhile books even if you don’t read German.

As to still in print or not I can’t say. I’d suggest surfing the IN book dealers for copies.

Austrian Military Cartridges - Vol. 1 & 2 on CD-ROM is available here: (Book format is sold out)

Translated order page here: … v%2FCD.htm

Both book 1 & 2 are one CD-ROM. And the CD is on sale!

I ordered this several months ago and it arrived in good shape.


Thanks, fellas, but I was asking about Hebler’s 1886 book(s). I’ll check those volumes out, though, for sure.


Hebler (and Rubin) was also helping the Danes to develop the 8x58RD. There exist some trial version with a Hebler projectile.