Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz, Karlsruhe-Baden (DMK) Circa 1885 Catalog, Blue Cover

#1

On Lew Curtis’ website GIG Concepts Inc. (http://gigconceptsinc.com/index.html) there is the webpage Free Reference Material Downloads http://gigconceptsinc.com/FreeData.html with a section entitled Free Cartridge Company Catalogs. This page has, among other things, digital copies of four different DMK catalogs, circa 1882, 1891 & two different circa 1895 catalogs.

From the online Biblioteca Virtual del Ministerio de defense comes a possible 5th catalog dated circa 1885. Below is the PDF of Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz, Karlsruhe-Baden (DMK) 1883 catalog, blue cover. Unfortunately the PDF is 43.3 MB in size so in order to place it here on the forum I had to split it into nine PDFs since the size limit for a download to the Forum is under 7 MB.

Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz, Karlsruhe-Baden (DMK) 1885 Catalog, Blue Cover, a.pdf (6.3 MB)

Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz, Karlsruhe-Baden (DMK) 1885 Catalog, Blue Cover, b.pdf (4.9 MB)

Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz, Karlsruhe-Baden (DMK) 1885 Catalog, Blue Cover, c.pdf (4.8 MB)

Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz, Karlsruhe-Baden (DMK) 1885 Catalog, Blue Cover, d.pdf (4.9 MB)

Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz, Karlsruhe-Baden (DMK) 1885 Catalog, Blue Cover, e.pdf (4.3 MB)

Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz, Karlsruhe-Baden (DMK) 1885 Catalog, Blue Cover, f.pdf (4.1 MB)

Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz, Karlsruhe-Baden (DMK) 1885 Catalog, Blue Cover, g.pdf (4.0 MB)

Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz, Karlsruhe-Baden (DMK) 1885 Catalog, Blue Cover, h.pdf (5.1 MB)

Deutsche Metallpatronenfabrik Lorenz, Karlsruhe-Baden (DMK) 1885 Catalog, Blue Cover, i.pdf (4.9 MB)

If you want to download the original PDF located on Biblioteca Virtual del Ministerio de defensa, go here

http://bibliotecavirtualdefensa.es and enter Munitionsfabrik in the search box, upper right corner of the page and click on BUSCAR (search).

Brian

#2

Hello Brian
I don’t have time to check every page right now but this catalogue looks to be the same as the 1883 Export catalogue the people already know.

Nota : The Export in German and French catalogue is from 1883 and not from 1885.

Thanks to spend your time to make research and to share your knowledge.
JP

#3

JP,

Thank you for the great information on dating the catalog. The circa 1885 date I used was based on my interpretation of the very limited information provided by Biblioteca Virtual del Ministerio de defense.

Thanks again,

Brian

#4

Brian,

You can date this catalogue because of the patents about:

  1. the reloading tool for shotshells (December 1882)
  2. the short range Mauser with conical bullet (June 1883)
    which are in this catalogue.

And because there is not the short range Mauser with round bullet (patent of July 1884)

JP

#5

Brian, in my opinion the correct date would be c. 1885, because the Hebler tests with the 7.5 x 58 R (#303), 7.5 x 60 R and 7.5 x 63 R (#304) cartridges were carried during late 1884 and 1885. Also, the two-piece case for compressed powder was patented as early as February 5, 1884.

Regards,

Fede

#6

Fede,

I think you didn’t took a look on the catalogue Brian showed.

The Hebler and so on ctges are not inside this catalogue.

You must talk about the other catalogue (Vol 1) which is not in French and German but only in German and is from 1885.

JP

#7

JP, I have two different copies of the same catalog posted by Brian -one with prices and one without them- and the Hebler cartridges are shown in table 26b.

#8

Fede,

  1. You are right.
    It is the 1883 catalogue (black one) with is an extra page (26b) which is not in this last one.
    I haven’t seen that.
    Well seen !

Therefore the addition with the Hebler two piece case brings this catalogue after February 1884.

It is logical DWM made an addedum during waiting the edition of a new catalogue.

  1. Regarding the Hebler ctges I have found reports of experimentations in many countries but some are still missing to me (Belgium for example), therefore I cannot say anything
    (I think you are refering to the Belgian tests in your post).

I have bought a big book on Hebler ctges at the last meeting in Switzerland but still no time to read it!

In which country did Hebler make experimentations with two piece cases ?

And in which country did he made experimentation with 7.5x 63R ?

Thanks
JP

#9

JP, I’m referring to the original tests held in Switzerland on November 1884 and reported by Hebler himself, where he describes the 7.5 x 63 R (#304) using a normal case and the 7.5 x 58 R (#303) using a two piece case.

Regards,

Fede

#10

thanks

JP

#11

Fede, does the other copy you have with the prices also show page 26c with the case #s 305-315 (as well as repeating case #s 40 & 272) ??

So far there are the following Lorenz catalogs:

  • Only page 26 c1883
  • Is there one with 26a but not 26b (as JP implies) ?? (with case #292 up to the #294 series)
  • Page 26a, 26b (ie the one from Madrid) c1884/85 ( case #295 up to case #304)
  • Page 26a, 26b, 26c (which I have with prices) c1885 (case #305 up to case #315)
    Then the
  • Catalog No 1 c1885/1886 (up to case #318)
#12

hello

  1. there are two pages as addenda : 26a and 26b.
    (when I say 26b it implies also 26a)
    I am talking about the Spanish catalogue

  2. Therefore it makes only 4 catalogues :

First one: stopping to page 26
Second one : with pages 26a and 26b as addenda (Spanish one)
Third one with pages 26a, 26b, 26c as addenda (your catalogue)
Last one which is Catalog N°1

  1. I always thought the Catalog N° 1 (at least the copy I have) is incomplete.

Because a lot of ctges of the first catalogue (French German) are no more in the Catalog N°1 and appear again in the N°2 catalogue (1891).
Or perhaps because thie Number 1 catalogue was for the German market and no need to put useless ctges for this market.but I doubt.

For info my Catalog N°1 stops at Tafel XV.

What do you think ?

  1. You can also notice number 297 appears twice.
    One time page 7 (regular catalogue) and another time page 26b (addenda)

The number 297 being in the first catalogue we can perhaps conclude at the date of the printing the ctges not shown inside (292,293,294,295,296) were however already existing.

And the new ctges shown in the addenda pages at the date of printing are in fact number 298, 299, 300, 301, 302 303 and 304.

What do you think ?

Thanks
JP

#13

Hi Brad,

No, there isn’t a page 26c in this copy.

Regards,

Fede

#14

Firstly, I would like to thank Brian for sharing (discovering) the Spanish copy of the Lorenz Export Catalog - it is the best quality of all the ones I have seen - very tidy !

Thanks for your response Fede - so the two copies you have which include Page 26a and 26b are exactly the same except for the prices ? The Spanish one has no prices at all which I assume is the same as one of yours. Does the other have printed prices or handwritten prices or a combination of both ???

Ok, so far there appear to be the following Lorenz catalogs:
• Lorenz Export Catalog with only page 26 including case #297 (but not 292,293,294,295,296) c1883 (with printed prices)
• Lorenz Export Catalog with Page 26a and Page 26b case #292 up to case #304) c1884/85 (with & without prices) #297 is included twice
• Lorenz Export Catalog with Page 26a, 26b, 26c c1885 (shows case #305 up to case #315) (with printed and handwritten prices) . This copy I got from Manfred Beutter over 20 years ago.

Followed by
• LorenzCatalog No 1 (up to case #318) c1885/1886

JP, regarding case #297 being in the first copy of the Export catalog. Your speculation is possible but there are other possible alternatives:

  • Case 292-.297 were all assigned by the time of the catalog but only 297 had been produced and so was included.
  • Case 292-.297 were all assigned by the time of the catalog but only 297 had been drawn and so was included.
  • Cases 292-296 were all assigned to cartridges that were never produced and then the numbers later reused after 297 had been used.
  • Case 297 was (accidently?) assigned out of chronological order (I know you won’t like this JP but everyone makes mistakes - eg. the later Export Catalogs show case 297 twice !?!?)
  • etc, etc

The point I am making is that; although some of these possibilities are more likely than others, we can’t be sure which of these is true.You once stated in a post that we needed to have “100% sure proof.” but you are now doing what all of us have done wrt the Lorenz/DM-K/DWM catalogs/case numbers and that is to speculate. Now speculation is fine - I do it often but will state that it is speculation ! Please don’t criticise others for speculating when you are now doing it yourself !

We will never know the truth for sure but with these multiple versions of the Export catalog we start to answer some questions, however new questions arise to replace them. This “hobby” can be most frustrating at times !

#15

Gentlemen,

Based upon the above scholarly dialogue I have, until advised otherwise, changed the date in the thread title to 1885.

Much thanks,

Brian

#16

Hello WBD,

First thanks to have answer me.

  1. Could you post a good scan of the 26c page you have ?

  2. Thanks for all the possibe alternatives you described.
    They will be taken into consideration as soon as we have perhaps new info.

  3. Little remark about your last paragraph :
    You can note I said : “we can perhaps conclude” and “What do you think ?”

Therefore “I am not doing …” and I am not criticising others “when I am now doing it myself”
I was just asking your opinion.

  1. You didn’t reply about the catalog N°1 you have and the fact I think it is incomplete.

Perhaps we will discover there is a version with more pages.
And it will be interesting to know what you think about the fact a lot of ctges are missing in it.

  1. Concerning this catalog I put it in my library as :
    Export catalogue with addenda from after February 1884

And not 1885 till I read the trials Fede talked about to have an exact date of their beginning.

And always keep in mind I must explain why they didn’t put the new short range which was patented in July 1884. in this case

Thanks
JP

#17

JP, is the " short range which was patented in July 1884." and “short range Mauser with round bullet (patent of July 1884)” you refer to the same as:

DRP 29663 : 23 Jul 1884 : Zielübungspatrone (additions for 26602)

where

DRP : 26602 : 19 Jun 1883 : Zielübungspatrone

Zielübungspatrone is a Target Practice Cartridge and could this be Lorenz case #290 shown on Table 1 of the Export catalog ?

Do you have a picture for that patent ??

#18

hello WBD

They are two patents :
First one :(June 1883)
DWM%20June%201883

DWM%20Export

Second one : (July 1884)
DWM%20July%201884

DWM%20German

Why do you ask me pictures if you have them already ??

JP

#19

Brad, my copy which include pages 26a and 26b has printed prices, except for said additional pages, that are blank.

JP, tests with cartridges of 7.5 mm caliber using cases #303 and #304 were reported for the first time by Hebler himself on November 3 and 6 of 1884. Earlier tests used a 8.6 mm caliber cartridge that was reported for the last time on June 1884. This means that, based on confirmed data and not on speculation, any catalog having page 26b can’t be earlier than November 1884.

Regards,

Fede

#20

WBD, jeanpierre beat me to it. I have sent you the complete patents via email. The black/white drawings in his post are from the patents.