Difference between 7.63×25 and 7.62×25

So, getting to the point with all of this would be the Tokarev and the Mauser are or are not the same thing? I am looking for a simple yes or no, no need for an explanation.

Grant

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Answer is: No. [I tried ‘No.’ alone but the text has to be at least 5 characters.]

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That is what I thought. Thanks for simplifying things for me.

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Answer is: Yes
Scientifically, this is the same cartridge.
But with different powder gas pressure.

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I know, but as we see the ammunition with the laquer on was still the common infantry issue.

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Our previous discussion showed that we have to agree to disagree. But your claim of presenting the “scientifically” proven view is quite daring in my opinion.

Edit: The two “scientific” sources I know, the CIP datasheets and the Soviet Albom konstruktsij patronov of 1946 (p. 19 and 32) treat them as different cartridges.

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Same thing with manufacturer variation. All was made for both/either pistols and SMGs.

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According to Russian manuals for the Mauser pistol (dated 1933-1938) and TT pistol (dated 1935-1940), this is the ballistic performance of the Mauser and TT cartridges:

  • Mauser = bullet 5,5 g, propellant 0,5 g, mv 425 m/s, barrel length 140 mm (1933).
  • Mauser = bullet 5,5 g, propellant 0,5 g, mv 400 m/s, barrel length 98 mm (1938).
  • TT = bullet 5,52 g, propellant 0,59 g, mv 420 m/s, barrel length 116 mm (1935-1940).

For comparison, here is the ballistic performance of the 7.63 mm Mauser cartridge published by DWM during the 1930’s:

  • 1930: bullet 5,5 g, propellant 0,53 g, mv 420 m/s, barrel lenght 140 mm.
  • 1934: bullet 5,5 g, propellant 0,52 g, mv 443 m/s, barrel lenght 140 mm, pressure 2500 kg/cm2.
  • 1937: Same as above.
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Would “Nine.” have worked? If not, “No, no, no.” would have. :slightly_smiling_face:

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The policy of the USSR would not allow the recognition of 7.62 TT as 7.63 Mauser. Especially after the big war with Germany in 1941-45.

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Peak pressure of powder gases. Also important.

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Yes, but it seems nobody has ever seen Russian documentation comparing the pressure of these cartridges, so how we do know how importart it may be?

Another thing to consider is that the Russian Mauser pistol manual from 1933 mentions the following:

“In connection with the introduction of domestically produced “TT” pistols into service, 7.63 mm Mauser cartridges are produced by our factories in sufficient quantity.”

This suggest that there wasn’t even a “7.62 mm” pistol cartridge in existence three years after the introduction of the TT pistol.

Regards,

Fede

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Fede, do you have a link to this last document?

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Email sent.

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Do you happen to have scans of those? That is the type of info I love to have cataloged.

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Side note, Fiocchi lists the 7.63 mauser at 1425 fps with an 88 grain bullet, and the 7.62 Tokarev at 1525 fps with an 85 grain bullet. Seems to me that 3 grain difference would not account for the 100 fps difference.

Also wondering why the two different bullet weights, but I can not, however, get their web site to open either the Mauser or Tokarev pages for more info. It looks like they are having general web site problems.

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Sellier & Bellot has some of the hottest 7.62x25mm Tokarev ammunition I’ve shot. They list it as 501m/s (1643 fps) from a 120mm barrel with an 85gr bullet.

Edit - mistakenly listed the 287mm test barrel data (566m/s)

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Often there are “similar” cartridges with a few different dimensions. In this case there appear to be almost no dimensions which are the same! If Tokarev was a Russian version of the Mauser cartridge then you would expect some commonality. The CIP proof pressures are also substantially higher. Just because it fits doesn’t mean it’s safe to fire it. You might get away with steel cased military ammunition, but soft brass in a chamber that is substantially different in dimensions is asking for trouble. Many of these pistols are 120 years old, and springs may be soft. Would I shoot Tokarev in my C96? not a chance. why risk it.
Back on the point. as collectors we look for differences between cartridges, and often there are very few. Here we have almost no similarities, so why is it even a question?
see attached TDCC from CIP. 7.62 x 25 Tokarev.pdf (38.0 KB) 7-63-mauser-en.pdf (22.5 KB)

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Not an argument, BUT because we agree on that point, where does CIP get its’ dimensions and pressures from?

What two cartridges and chambers are they using for those specs?

I ask because of the two notations at the bottom:
“Dimensions and Tolerances for Proof Barrels” and “*Basic Dimensions”

Whose “Basic Dimensions” are applied here?

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CIP Mauser and TT tables date from 1984 and 1990 respectively, so they can’t be used to establish the original specifications of these cartridges.

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