Dimensions in old catalogues


#1

In the very old german catalogues (before 1900) like in the DWM, Utendoerffer or Stahl ones, aso, the dimensions given for the rim, base, neck diameter of ctges are the average or the maximum ??
JP


#2

I wouldn’t say either of these but rather “approximate” rounded dimensions. Some of the RWS/Utendoerffer can be out as much as 0.4mm from their factory drawings.

So for example the Utendoerffer “R.P.” case type is shown in catalogs as 13mm but in factory drawings is given as 12.65mm. Simarlarly for other case types. DWM dimensions seem closer however.


#3

[quote=“WBD”]I wouldn’t say either of these but rather “approximate” rounded dimensions. Some of the RWS/Utendoerffer can be out as much as 0.4mm from their factory drawings.

So for example the Utendoerffer “R.P.” case type is shown in catalogs as 13mm but in factory drawings is given as 12.65mm. Simarlarly for other case types. DWM dimensions seem closer however.[/quote]

Hello WBD,
good you can bring your knowledge because you checked a lot of ctges.
About me I took care of shotshells only.

  1. When I compared the dimensions of the old catalogues with the ones given in the Utendoerffer drawings or DWM tables it looked some dimensions in the very old catalogues were the maxima and some others the averages.

This is strange for two reasons :

  • first why to take the max for the rim for example, and the average for the base ?
  • second, if it was right it would not show the changes which occur about shotshells in 1904 and then in 1913
  1. I did the work again, taking into consideration the fact all the Utendoerffer drawings I know are at least from after 1913 (if not fromr 1920); the same about DWM tables which are post 1913 (we don’t know which year the modifications are made)Therefore we have a 20 years difference at least, and furthermore 20 years during big changes in dimensions were made.

Because of that impossible to compare the dimensions and to establish a rule (average or maximum).

  1. If you compare the dimensions of DWM, Stahl, Utendoerffer, aso pre 1900 catalogues you will discover they are exactly the same.
    And they are different from the post 1913 (at least ones)

Comparing these dimensions with SFM drawings of these ctges of this time or with specimen we are abolutely sure they are from this period we find they are coherent;

  1. Conclusion : i think (at least about shotshells) the dimensions in the pre 1900 catalogues are the maxima.

To be sure of that it would be necessary to find a shotshell factory drawing from either DWM, Utendoerffer, Stahl, Egerstorff dated from before 1904.

I don’t think such a drawing is existing !
But perhaps making the same experience with a non shotshell ctge (comparing measurements given by a pre 900 catalogue and dimensions given by a drawing of the same year) will be easier.

  1. When I was extansively collecting hunting ctges and comparing my specimen dimensions with the ones given by your books I discovered these last ones were always bigger than the real ones.
    I thought it was because you rounded the inch to mm conversion.
    But now I think it is simply because you took the dimensions given by catalogues and this dimensions are maxima.
    (You call that approximate, but it is strange they approximate for example from 12.65 to 13 mm as in your example because they often give dimensions with 2 numbers after the comma)

what do you think ?
JP


#4

JP, clearly you have spent a bit of time considering this. It appears from what you say that Shotshells, just like rifle cartridges, went through a ‘Normalisation’ process in the early 20th century.

Any of your speculations could be correct but we will never know for sure. If I had to pick one then “Maximum” would be the natural choice. However, I prefer to use the catalog dimensions as a guide and use actual examples or factory case drawings wherever possible. Now that I have dimensions of a lot of previously ‘nks’ examples my dimensional data is much more accurate, although the differance in dimensions from one company to another prior to 1900 is fairly large.

Good luck with your book!


#5

Its been my experience that the older cartridges had a lot of variation in their dimensions. there were no international standards and as long as it fitted all the variations of chamber and went bang that was good enough.