Doc on captured French ammo - Brandt designs

Here fragmentary images from some German report on captured French material.
And to my understanding wether at a French ammo testing facility/shooting range or maybe at Brandt company.
I been talking to several well connected Frenchmen but so far nobody was able to ID the document and let alone finding the full version in propper quality.

Anybody here who can tell more or is able to provide a digital version of the doc?

This is all I have found so far:

discarding sabot squeeze probably

Hi Alex, these images are from an article published by Haack. I’ll look for the full article when I get back home, but I have never seen the original report.

Regards,

Fede

Fede, sounds good.
The Haack article may be a good starting point then.

These are indeed photos from Haack’s presentation at a Peenemünde conference in 1941, printed in Bericht 139 der Lilienthal-Gesellschaft.
Alas, he only mentions that these were French experimental projectiles, but does not say at what institution they were found. He also gives no mass or dimensions, only compares the shapes in a general way with results of his own method to calculate shapes of lowest wave drag.

Here is the full article: Geschossformen kleinsten Wellenwiderstandes (Bericht 139, Teil 1, Okt. 9-10, 1941).pdf (3.6 MB)

1 Like

Fede, thanks a lot! Very good to have this article now and having the images connected to a doc.

Just where are the Wehrmacht reports on the rest they have found there…?

I have a Swiss GP 11 experimental, made shortly after WWII, developed by some “professor Haak” according my source. Are we talking about the same man?

Probably yes, because Haack worked in Switzerland as a consultatnt in 1948 and in 1949, involved among other things in the development of a 10.5 cm projectile and an 8 cm Oerlikon rocket.

Here is a picture of a pulled Haack bullet from a 7.5x55 headstamped D 12 T 50. It weighs 11.56 g (178.39 gr).

Haackpatrone 11,56 g

Correction: It is not a Haack design, see post below.

Maybe of interest:

As usual, take Wikipedia with a grain of salt.
William Rees Sears in his memoirs does not claim to have discovered the Haack shape independently. He describes at some length this involvement in the debriefing of German scientists in Paris. Haack was a well known figure among German Aerodynamicists and Mathematicians. Could he really be ignorant of Haack’s results?

The source cited by Wikipedia wrongly gives the date of Haack’s work as 1947, while he presented it at a Peenemünde conference in October 1941 (reported in the document Fede provided).

And as the French experimental bullets presented by Haack show, elsewhere even earlier work had been done.

Here is an English translation from 1946 (from captured German documents):

Missile Shapes Having Least Wave Drag (1946) (Pt. 1).pdf (5.0 MB)

Missile Shapes Having Least Wave Drag (1946) (Pt. 2).pdf (4.1 MB)

Fede, thank you very much. 1946 is even earlier than the year 1947 claimed so far for Sears.

Fede,
I am not sure the projectile on your picture is a Haack. The Haack is very different… but hst is correct.
This one looks like a GP11 with special coating only, found in plastic bags at the factory! I had a talk with Paul, who sectionned some Haack. We both agree.
Thanks anyway for all the amazing infos you get.
Buen dia…

Jeff,
you are correct regarding the shape of the entire bullet. But Haack himself, for example, designed a bullet for the assault rifle, which had only an ogive shaped according to his method, while shank and boattail remained conventional. (Kapell, Sturmgewehr Patrone, p. 77 in both editions).
With the naked eye you cannot necessarily tell a Haack ogive from an ordinary shape, depending on the parameters used in the computation of the shape.

Jeff, you are right, thanks for the correction. I mixed this coated bullet with a picture of a loaded example and back then didn’t notice they were not the same:

Ha

Regards,

Fede

1 Like

It seems Haack developed several types that were tested in Switzerland after WWII. Black one in the picture is “my only” Haack, headstamp D 1 T 5O. Bullet has a very distinctive line, the same one Fede shows and very different indeed from an standard GP11, shown below.

1 Like

Here are my drawings…

Paul

1 Like