Dou 9mm Kurz


#1

I recently acquired this cartridge from a source outside the UK collecting community. Unfortunately it was inerted, as I do not live in a free country.

The headstamp is: dou. st 1 43

What is the significance of the dot after the dou marking?

How common are these? I would think they are probably not that rare, but I haven’t seen one before. This could possibly have ended up in the UK via a Luftwaffe Airman, or been brought back by a British Soldier.


#2

As far as I know just this one lot is known in steel casing produced by dou. What the dot signifies after the dou I do not know as I have several hundred (dou.) 7.9mm rounds and do not know what the (dot) signifies. They all seem to have it.
I am interested in the green color of the base as green base usually signifies Beschuss Patrone (high pressure test) round. The VZ 22 Czech round that are such, usually have a nickel plated case with black primer annulus not green dyed base.

Joe

Edit: Same company, different location used dov for a headstamp same time period but different caliber (20x82 Mauser). Maybe that is why the put a dot after the dou.


#3

As i have learned in my range of 7.92x57 collection, The ‘dot’ behind the ‘dou.’ marking was simply to point out how to read the code correct.
If no point was added, it could be read as ‘nop’ when held upside-down.

Geert.


#4

Yes, could be not to confuse with nop, but nop or Allgemeine Elektrizitäts-Gesellschaft. Installationsbüro Mainz, Bonifatius-Platz (General Electric Company. Installation Office Mainz, Boniface Square) made what?

Joe

Edit, They made pistol grips for P38’s. No ammunition that I am aware of. However, I cannot offer any other explanation other that Geert’s.


#5

The period was just a orientation device and was to be added to all codes which could be read the “other way around.” The original code books suggest they were pretty thorough in adding the mark. Note that the code for Steyr Daimler Puch was bnz., for example. Jack


#6

Jack,

Yes, Steyr-Daimler-Puch AG sometimes used a dot after the bnz core they used , but not always. Out of the weapon code marks I have seen from them over the years, I feel more often than not that they did NOT used the dot. There is no zuq code either that I know of, is there?
Steyr-Daimler-Puch AG switched to code swj around 1945.

I still feel it is a viable explanation but not verifiable as of yet.

Joe


#7

On the other hand, they didn’t know that there wouldn’t be such a code. I’ll check the code book and see if it calls for a full stop after “bnz”. Jack


#8

Looked at multiple K98k rifle pictures on the net and the dot and no dot on rifles from 1941 thru 1945 is evident like I remembered. I got out my trusty book Backbone Of The Wehrmacht The German K98K Rifle 1934-1945 by Richard D Law and done some research. He proclaims the dot in the bnz and Waffen Werke Bystrica means the use of “Böhler steel”.

Joe


#9

Joe,

here’s the ‘written proof’ you’re after.
I was almost sure that i read it somewhere that the dot was placed in order not to misread the code…

I scanned this page from the “Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen für Waffen, Munition und Gerät - Berlin 1944”

Geert.


#10

Geert,

Thats great!
But, two things, they had been doing this since at least 1941 for dou and it was intermittent all the way to the end in 1945. There is no reverse for bnz so why do such. I suppose I should wright Richard D Law and ask where he got his information on “Böhler steel”. There are other codes that can be reversed and they have no dot after them.

Well regardless, Geert you have provided there was a directive, whether it was enforced or not is another discussion.

Joe


#11

The reverse of bnz is zuq.

Apart from that, the factories could not decide on their own. “Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen” shows the code to be “bnz.” which the factory had to use without asking questions. Of course they were not given the list, but simply received a letter telling them to use “bnz.” in place of 660.

It goes without saying that the rules were not always obeyed.


#12

[quote=“xjda68”]As far as I know just this one lot is known in steel casing produced by dou. What the dot signifies after the dou I do not know as I have several hundred (dou.) 7.9mm rounds and do not know what the (dot) signifies. They all seem to have it.
I am interested in the green color of the base as green base usually signifies Beschuss Patrone (high pressure test) round. The VZ 22 Czech round that are such, usually have a nickel plated case with black primer annulus not green dyed base.

Joe
[/quote]
Thanks for the reply.

The base is not actually dyed green, the light makes it appear that way. It is the same finish as the case with a black primer annulus.

So it seems like I actually acquired quite a good cartridge. I suppose the actual number made has been lost to history.

How would these rounds have been issued? As I understand, 9mm Kurz was not a standard calibre for the military of the Third Reich. Would anyone such as a pilot that may have carried a pistol in this calibre have had to specifically ask for it? I have always understood that officers especially had some choice about the sidearm they chose to carry.


#13

The simplest way to describe the pattern of adding the period/full stop is the following. For those German codes consisting of two or three lower-case printed letters in any code in which the code consists only of the letters b, d, n, o, p, q, s, u, x, or z (in any combination) the dot will be added. And they did. This is by no means the only thing Law got wrong. Jack


#14

[quote=“Jack”]The simplest way to describe the pattern of adding the period/full stop is the following. For those German codes consisting of two or three lower-case printed letters in any code in which the code consists only of the letters b, d, n, o, p, q, s, u, x, or z (in any combination) the dot will be added. And they did. This is by no means the only thing Law got wrong. Jack

(p.s. just to nip one potential problem in the bud “usw.” isn’t a maker’s code; it merely means “and so forth” in German)[/quote]


#15

It is not so easy at it seems.

From 1891 until 1908 a factory called Spandau made cases with and without a dot behind the “S”. Perhaps it was an internal marking for a second production line or an other shift, I don’t know.

The same happened by P334/fb.
By the code P334 the Roman 7 was connected or not. After 1941 they marked the code “fb” with and without a dot.

Btw. The “dot” behind the code “dou” is also written on the box label.

@ Falcon, The Germans produced in 1943 this round only the first four months.

1 500 000 rounds in January
1 100 000 rounds in February
1 300 000 rounds in March
1 100 000 rounds in April

I do not know if it was including FN production.

Rgds


#16

Thanks for the box label photo dutch.

Does anyone know if 9mm Kurz pistols were ever standard issue for any branch of the 3rd Reich’s forces? If they were, what types were they likely to have been? I have read online that they did use Femaru M-37s in this calibre.


#17

Falcon: I don’t know how much use they made of them, but the German armed forces had access to a considerable quantity of Czech military and police handguns in this caliber, mostly models of 1924 and 1938. Jack


#18

Jack, The ammo for the M22 and M34 are separately listed.

Production from 1.9.1939 until 30.09.1941:

M22 10 096 280 rounds
M34 5 000 000 rounds

No production after this date.

Rgds
Dutch