Doubts authenticity rounds

At the recent meeting of Hessisch Oldendorf. in Germany, I got a known Belgian collector, these rounds that inspire me some doubts about its authenticity.

Could someone provide information on them?

7,92 x 30 ¿?

7,62 x 25 Subcaliber ¿?

7,62 x 39 Russian, ball frangible

5,45 x 18 PSM, ball frangible

Thanks for the help.

Joaquín.

Hello Joaquin,

1 appears to be a 7.92 Spotter cartridge. However, these had a length of 24.5mm, not 30.

Hola Joaquín, I doubt any of these is authentic and I think that this is the work of a faker well known to many of us. I hope I’m wrong, otherwise, it is hard to believe that he is allowed to attend a cartridge collectors meeting.

The first round combines an unloaded 9 mm M1A1BG blank case with what it looks like a German S.m.E. lg. bullet. The rest looks like odd combinations of existing components.

I hope others share their opinions as well.

Saludos,

Fede

I wish the 7.62x25 was authentic, but I don’t believe it is. As Fede said, it looks like someone stuck some odd components together. I hope they don’t show up at SLICS. Did you get them all from the same person?

The frangibles are developed by “Ballist Engineering” of Belgium. These are no Russian cartridges as such, just Russian cases.

Hi, the ballist Eng.Company is just operated by the guy in question. He founded it after leaving FN. He has constructed several “new” cartridges, never found in the real commercial market and I do not knew, any user of this “frangible” ammo made from (sometimes used) components. But he has them on sale every time on the shows. so I think, for my part, thats are only “collector” items to screw pocket money out from naiv clients…

As Fede stated, the first one is a unfinished blank round with some sort of bullet stuck in it. The same with the Tokarev case from CSR.
Ballistic Eng. had sold frangible bullets (eighter made by them or made from someone for them). I have seen just the bullets on his booth in commercial shows like Milipol and Eurostory…

So, I believe, none of them are “real” stuff sold commercial or for military or police use…just “collector” traps…

sorry…

Forensic

hello
the 5.45x18 had steel lacquered case ?
it yes it the first time that i see steel case in this caliber

It is brass, no steel.

It seems that since he operates his own company he has sold several cartridges loaded with lead free hunting or frangible bullets, but it is hard to believe that these are authentic developments when you find the same frangible heeled bullet in .22 Long Rifle, 5.45x18 and 5.7x25! The same occurs with other bullets types.

The bxn 54 case is a Vz50 7,62x45 Czech case…obviously resized and trimmed. FAKE FAKE FAKE

As to the others, the above remarks say it all.

Doc AV

I don’t understand how many of you imply you know of somebody within the collecting community who you believe is making and/or selling fake cartridges and yet you seem reluctant to say who he is. Surely for the benefit of all collectors he should be named, shamed and a photograph of him published here on the forum.

It is quite possible you are very gullible, but neither expect to find in such important as meeting of ECRA, collectors are offering, so naturally and quantity, fake rounds.

The collector in question, Jean Paul Denis, and we can recognize in this photograph by his white hair.

Other cartridges offered me, showing his article in reference bulletin ECRA, was the 4 x 27 Pre P90.


It is also fake?

thanks
jp

Next time be aware of everything he is offered.

451kr.

The 8th grade lawyer in me says: we as a very small group need to be very careful about identifying specific persons as fraud or selling fake as it could result in a law suit which we can not really afford even if we are right. Just a cautionary note. Please continue to show the fakes but maybe not the proposed faker! PM would be a much safer way to move the specific material.

The IAA does not endorse or condone anything which any one user says in the forum, and only stipulates the standard set of rules as far as decorum in what is said. The described events above are at least a safety issue which should be discussed so that people are not receiving cartridges which are labeled as one caliber, but which in fact are another caliber, or not the described caliber at all. People from all sides are welcomed to reply, but thus far the evidence presented suggests that nothing untoward or untrue has been described by the users who provided concerns over the cartridges in question (in terms of who they came from), which are at the very least woefully ill-described / misidentified, or at the worst; nefarious counterfeits…

I bought this cartridge at SLICS in 2014. Unfortunately.

Once I got home and started looking at it closer I had my suspicions.

edited to add the following.
I should clarify that I did not buy this cartridge from the white haired man in the picture.

After watching this type of discussion for many years, and watching both the IAA and ECRA struggle with fakes and what constitutes a fake, I have decided that the core problem, as DK implied is that there is no common definition of FAKE. In fact, most of us probably have different definitions of fakes and what they are.

Are replica, fakes??? Any number of gun collectors and cartridge collectors create or have made replica cartridges to fill holes that they never expect to fill with an original cartridge. Never an intent to defraud, and usually these are not marked as replicas, like the case of a 9mm Walther Rocket, A round that has often copied into replicas with no intent to defraud, but also copied with intent to defraud, and replicas often sold as originals. One collector tried to prevent his replica from becoming a fraud by having it made from brass instead of steel!!! A good idea, but if I live long enough (unlikely) I would not be surprised to see a future owner writing it up in a future Journal or Cartridge Researcher as probably an experimental prototype.

Labeling a fake implies an intent to deceive which is a hard thing to determine. Is the sale of cartridges that have been loaded from original cases and bullets, even if they use the correct powder and primer actually selling fakes??? What if it is not the correct powder and primer??? I know this is not an uncommon practice with ammunition at cartridge shows in both Europe and the US because it is much easier to transport the rounds across the ocean as inert bullets and cases instead of loaded ammunition. If they are sold as recreated loads, they are clearly not fakes because there is no fraud involved. If they are sold as original loaded rounds than there is fraud involved. Usually though they are simply placed on the table, often in the original boxes, and no claim of originality is offered, and the buyer usually doesn’t ask. Is fraud involved? Are these fakes? Does the seller even know if they are original???

Collectors of boxes will often find a great box and then seek the ammo to fill it up. There are ads here and other places of collectors seeking rounds to fill a box. Do these refilled boxes become “Fakes”. I have seldom seen a box offered for sale that is noted as being refilled? Is this fraud??? Is it fraud if the seller bought it as a full box but didn’t ask if it had been refilled when he bought it. It is not unusual to see some types of boxes being carefully resealed so they appear as a sealed box. I picked one up lately that was exactly that.

In the case of the rounds that originated this thread, it makes little sense to me to label them fakes, particularly since the individual owns a company that offers some of these type items for commercial sales and is usually at the ShotShow seeking sales. There are very legit rounds made in very small quantities and fraudulent rounds made in some quantities. Does it matter if he sells more of a round to collectors than he uses for testing? Simply not selling a round commercially does not make it a fake. Again the issue is fraud. Is the round sold as Chinese production just because it is loaded in a Chinese case but actually made by somebody else—I think that if Fraud. If it is bought because the buyer thinks it is Chinese production without being told that, than it is simply a case of a buyer making unfounded assumptions. If that buyer resells it and asserts that the round is Chinese then he is committing fraud. If he sells it with no claim that it was original Chinese production than no fraud is involved.

The correct answer is for the buyers to beware and be cautious. Unless you are convinced that the item is original, then ask the seller to give you a written and signed note indicating the origin of the cartridge. If the seller will not do it, or tells you he doesn’t know than it is up to the buyer to decide.

Most sellers won’t bother if it is a relatively inexpensive round, I sure wouldn’t. If it is an expensive round, then an honest seller should be willing to write down what he knows of the round, otherwise the potential buyer has to make a hard decision.

I have often written down the story that comes with a round, and saved it with a note as to the source of the story. I have quite a few rounds I have some minor doubt to major doubt in my collection. I try to capture that doubt in a note on the round so the future owner understands it.

I frankly have little use for all the discussion of Fakes above. More useful would be a discussion of fraud, like a person removing the identification that a round is a replica and then selling it as an original—that is clearly fraud.

The second question is how deeply either the IAA or the ECRA should become involved in policing fraud in this hobby, or even determining when fraud has been committed. I have been involved in some of that type discussion when I was an IAA officer and learned great caution. An example comes to mind when an exotic round was labeled as a “fake” by a person involved deeply in the development of the round. After digging deeply, it turned out that the item in question was a very legit experimental which was clearly described in program documentation! Trouble is we almost never have access to complete documentation, and in fact seldom have any documentation.

I have found quite a few cases when items have been classified as “Fakes” by “Experts” based on opinions, not documented facts. I sometimes wonder which is worst in these cases, the individual who sells the purported fake with no intent to defraud, or the individual who asserts it is a fake with only speculation and no conclusive evidence. A credible expert will say “I think” or “for these reasons I believe” or “it is possible”, but I don’t see this very often.

Perhaps a website, with no affiliation with either organization where people could post their thoughts on fraud would help us all, but even that has many complications.

No easy solutions. Perhaps the only one is buyers beware.

Just my thoughts, which are worth exactly what you paid for them.

Cheers,
Lew

Can’t say much about other 3 - most probably all are fakes as others stated…but posted 7.62x25 is a proprietary cartridge developed by friend of mine several years ago for the real rifle. His gunsmith has converted CZ Brno ZKW 465, originally chambered in cal. 22 Hornet to this caliber. It’s a cheap way of “Whisper” which works fine. Case is standard widely available 7.62 Tokarev and bullets are 7.62 (.309 dia) weighting 125grs to keep the muzzle velocity subsonic. It’s possible to use the standard Tokarev cartridge loading as well but with less accuracy due to the modified chamber.

Is there any box, packaging, or documentation for the 7.62x25 round?