Dr Kaultmann Experiments in 9mm


#1

I came across this 9mm Para cartridge. On the first sight it looked like a blank cartridge. After a closer look the slits are deep and the plastic seems to be a sabot. In the tip in at a depth of 2 mm a metal point visable.
My impression is a kind of flechette.
Who can tell me more about this cartridge?




#2

This is an APDS load without the core. It was made in ~70 by Rheinmetall. They were working on an assault rifle and the test rounds were 9x19mm cases with a plastic extension making them about rifle length. Dr Kaultmann worked the project. Some of the projectiles were loaded directly into 9x19mm cases. There is no way of telling if this round has had the core removed or whas perhaps loaded without the core to test some aspect of the sabot.

Cheers, Lew


#3

Is the metal projectile in the sabot attracted to a magnet? Do you hear powder shaking inside the case when you shake it? Very interesting cartridge!


#4

Thanks Lew and DK for the quick replay,

Lew,
Do you have a photo of a 9mm Para APDS with a core? . Is the metal inside the sabot not the core?

DK,
The metal in the sabot is not attrakted to a magnet. The collour of the metal looks like aluminium.
I cannot hear annything when I shake the cartidge
TL= 29,26 mm
Total weight = 109 grains


#5

I read your original note too fast. Your’s clearly has the core in it. Mine is more translucent plastic and I can clearly see the core which is thin with a sharp point. Your plastic is more opaque than mine. Very nice item. I have another with an opaque red plastic sabot!


#6

Does someone have more information about the Dr Kaultmann Experiments for the assault rifle project in the 70ths. Info, drauwings , photos all is more than wellkom.

Thanks in advance,

Richard


#7

Dr Kaultmann was a designer for Rheinmetall when I met him first in the mid-1970s. His English was almost as bad as my German, but I understood that he began working for Rheinmetall before WWII or early in the war. He was involved in a wide range of things and in the late 1970s he developed a series of cartridges for a unique assault rifle, as I remember. The case was 9x19mm with a plastic extension and a plastic bullet/sabot with a steel core. There were probably over 20 variations of this round, I only got one because they were expensive and not really a 9mmP load. Others will have much more information on this cartridge and the experiment. There was a similar cartridge but with a black plastic bullet at the last SLICS auction. The cartridge pictured has a Geco commercial headstamp.

During the same timeframe, Dr Kaultmann was developing a similar bullet but the load was intended for weapons chambered for 9x19mm ammunition. I have two loaded cartridges and two seperate bullets. Both cartridges have normal W-W headstamps like the one pictured by R308. I think the seperate bullet on the left is the same as the one in the loaded cartridges on the right, or at least very similar. I’m sure there are more to this series.

I was wrong in my earlier note-I do not have one of these loads with a red plastic bullet. Dr Kaultmann also had a series of experimentals with plastic bullets filled with a metal powder/granduals which were intended to be non-lethal by expanding to about 1 inch disks shortly after leaving the barrel of the gun. I have one of that series with a red plastic bullet instead of the more normal blue.

Any more information on Dr Kaultmann’s experimentals would be appreciated.

Cheers, Lew


#8

Some miscellaneous Kaultmann 9mm Parabellum experimentals, made I believe at Rheinmetall. All specimens are different in some way from each other. In the case of those with the red plastic sabot, the difference is only the headstamp. All of these rounds except one are loaded into brass cases with the headstamp “norma 9mm Luger” with primarily lower-cased letters as shown.

They have brass primer cups. The one exception is one of the two red ones, which is a “W-W 9mm LUGER” headstamp, and has a nickeled-cup primer. The difference in primers would indicate to me that the cases were factory primed by the respective case makers. I do not know if the different colored sabots had an special significance, but probably they did. I have no real information on the experiments themselves.

Collection of John Moss


#9

John, Thanks for posting these. I have many of the same ones you have. I only have one red (with a WW hst) and I have a blue one with a WW headstamp. All the rest of mine have the norma headstamp. As you said, lots of minor variations on these.

The only other Kaultmann/Rheinmetall rounds I have are two wadcutter loads with lead bullets which came from Kaultmann.

Cheers, Lew


#10

Thanks Lew, Jones and John M. for the information on the Kaultmann / Rheinmetall rounds.

Lew, were the wadcutters of a peticular form, so they could be recognised as Kaultmann experimental??

Richard.


#11

Is this a Kaultmann ? Or an US Experimental ctge ?
Hstp is R A 54
Thanks
JP


#12

Please, stop calling our late friend “Kaultman”. His actual name was Dr. H.J. KALTMANN,.

He was a good friend, with some kind of special sense of humour.

He worked during years at Rheinmetall-Borsig, and was extremely nice in the cartridge"business", even if he did not look always as a smiling kind of fellow.

I think that this had to be said, and I am personnally still very sorry of his passing away…

Philippe


#13

I have to reakt even I have no time but for respekt and as I see Philippe reakt also The name is Kaltmann, I met him less then a year before he past away, it shoult be between 15-20 years ago. On a German meeting with some of it’s developments and cut away’s of 7.62 Nato, Yes we are speaking about the co- author of "The military cartridges caliber 7.62 x 51 mm NATO their development and variants"
They used any 9 mm case they get, for the assault rifle ctg. They used the cases only for easy’r test to close the bottem of the case. The intention is makinga complete plastic cartridge as Rheinmethal din’t belief in a caseless round (problems with cook-off wher to big (speaking early '70 ties). They doing a lot of testing different plastics and shapes. I was lucky taking with the man, and more lucky as he send me later the "Patent anmeldung der RH-Treibk


#14

I am sorry that I misspelled Herr Kaltmann’s name. I followed the lead. I actually had in my notes the “Kaltmann” spelling but figured I had gotten it wrong 20 or more years ago when I got the cartridges. I try to be careful of spellings, as I know it can be a personal issue. Perdoname.


#15

[quote=“jean-pierre”]Is this a Kaultmann ? Or an US Experimental ctge ?
Hstp is R A 54
Thanks
JP
[/quote]

Is this a Kaltmann ? Or an US Experimental ctge ?
jp


#16

The cartridges posted by Jones are discribed in “Offenlegungsschrift 23 29 665” -Bezeichnung Nichtt


#17

The 9mm from Dr. Kaltmann are actually mine. My partner Joe Jones posts them for me because I am too ignorant to figure out how to do it.

How do we get a copy of the document you mention. The name of the document has little meaning unless it can be available somehow for study and research? I would love to get a copy for my library, and to confirm the cartridges I have and what variations they exactly are.

thank you.


#18

Jan - I managed to get the Deutsches Patent Offenlegungsschrift 23 29 665, sent to me by a friend in Germany. Thanks for posting the information about it. I won’t need it now, and I see it is too long to practically post on this thread.


#19

Hi Jan,

Here is the image.

As Jan has already said, the use of brass cases (first cut down 5.56 x 45, then 9mm cases) were used to seal the breach and that the final design would be a totally expellable case (as illustrated by the single round on the right hand side of the board; below the 9.3 x 64 ballistic test load). There are 7 distinct phases to the design evolution of these rounds - nicely indicated by the white paper strips under the mounted specimens. The exception being the last 2 rounds in the series which are from phase 7.

JP - Your round is a Kaltmann from phase 1.


#20

Philippe,
Thank you for the correction on the spelling of Dr Kaltmann’s name. I also miss him. He was a fine gentleman and gracious to me when I was a young collector. I am disappointed to have spelled his name wrong.

Again, thanks for the correction.

Lew