Drawing needed of .30 Nato M61 AP projectile


#1

Hello,

I am looking for the drawing of the .30 Nato M61 AP projectile.
Can anyone help ?
Thanks in advance


#2

Hackley, Woodin & Scranton Volume 3 will undoubtedly have every conceivable detail when it appears.


#3

I don’t have a drawing, but here’s a sectioned bullet that may give you a start in what you’re looking for.

T29 on the right.

HWS 3 may not have a drawing of every bullet and those that are illustrated probably will not show much detail. But the originals will be at the Woodin Lab.

Good Luck.

Ray


#4

Ray, is the M2 for the 30-06 or was it also used on the 7.62x51?


#5

The M2 is the AP bullet for the Cal .30 (30-06). It was also loaded in the very first Light Rifle developmental cartridges to determine pressures and velocities in the short case.

The T6 was the first AP bullet developed exclusively for the Cal 30 LR (7.62mm). It was loaded as the T93 and T93E1 from 1948 until 1952. The T29 bullet was loaded as the T93E2 and adopted as the 7.62mm NATO AP M61.

Ray


#6

M61 is not identical to the old .30 AP M2 bullet. It has a boattail, and weighs 150.5(-6.5)gr versus 166(-7.6) gr.
The funny thing is that armour tests today still are done with the old M2, not M61. The U.S. seems to have enormous numbers of WW2 .30 AP M2 in stock.

To find a dimensioned drawing of the outside (!) shape of M61 (and the other U.S. 7.62 NATO bullets) got to: dtic.mil
Search for “ad0815788” to find a PDF file of a BRL report by Maynard Piddington.
Page 10 shows the drawings.


#7

Ray and Jochem, thanks for the clarification. Very interesting!


#8

According to HWS Vol. III, the NATO M61 Armor-Piercing cartridge was the earlier T93E2 cartridge redesignated as the M61. The T93E2 cartridge used the Cal. .30 Light Rifle AP bullet FAT 29, which is shown in Fig. 215. The late Gene Scranton drew this bullet from the official Army drawing.

Page 169: “Another 10-caliber-ogive AP bullet designed during this period was designated the FAT 29 (Fig. 215). This bullet had a boattail base and GM jacket and weighed 150.5 -5.5 grs. The FAT 29 was shown on drawing FB 30517 dated Nov. 5, 1953, and was later released for production at both Frankford and Lake City Arsenals. The loaded round, with FAT 1E3 case and FAT 29 AP bullet, was designated the T93E2 cartridge.

FIG. 215. Cal. .30 Light Rifle Armor-Piercing Bullet FAT 29 (from Dwg. FB 30517, Nov. 5, 1953).

Diam. .3086 -.0010 Weight 150.5 -5.5 grs.
Length 1.28 -.04"

Page 211: “The Ordnance Technical Committee, on 26 August 1954, standardized the T93E2 Cal. .30 light rifle AP round as the Cartridge, 7.62mm NATO, Armor-Piercing M61. The drawing for this round was C 7553704 dated Feb. 20, 1955. The M61 was loaded to a velocity of 2,750 fps and was designed to penetrate 10 gauge (0.135 in.) SAE 1010 or 1020 steel plate at 1,200 yards. Production was primarily assigned to Lake City, although Frankford Arsenal did load one production lot (FA 26) which was headstamped (NATO) FA 55. The first lot of M61 cartridges loaded at Lake City was LC 12022 headstamped (NATO) LC 55. Production continued in 1955 through Lot LC 12033. Lake City production was loaded with brass primers and red sealant, and the bullets had a black tip and a smooth case mouth crimping cannelure with a knurled cannelure just above.

In 1956, Frankford Arsenal assigned FAT 57 to the M61 AP cartridge with a steel case. The drawing of this round was FB 38628 dated May 16, 1956. The case used was the FAT 1E4, which was zinc-plated and cronak-treated. Rounds examined are headstamped F A 54 and (NATO) FA 55 with nickel-plated primers and red sealant. In early 1957, Lake City started limited production of the M61 AP cartridge with steel case as part of the Department of Defense copper savings program. The first lot, LC-S-12034, consisting of 104,640 rounds, was accepted during March 1957. Production continued through April 1957 with Lots LC-S-12035 and 12036. All three of the lots had (NATO) LC 56 headstamps and had brass primers with purple sealant. One final lot of 5,000 rounds was loaded in early 1958 and designated LCA-54-3-58. It used components remaining from Lot LC-S-12036 and was sent to Springfield Armory for testing."


#9

Hello,

thanks for these first information.

I wanted to identify this .308 Nato Armor Piercing projectile that I expected to be M61 ; according to the T29 drawing which should have become M61, this should not be the case.

Any idea about the type of this AP projectile ?

total mass 9,4g (145 grains)
core mass 4,6g (71grains)

Thanks in advance for any help.


#10

If I’m seeing that section image correctly, then it is a copper-washed steel jacket (GMCS), meaning it was likely a .311 7.62x54R or 7.62x39 ? projectile that somebody resized to .308. This has been going on a LOT lately with regard to .30 cal API bullets for resale, and to a lesser extent with the steel core ball bullets. Due mostly to the scarcity in recent years of the genuine M61 .308 AP bullets or even scarcer M14 API bullets. I see it a lot on Gunbroker or certain gun shows, a lot of it crops up at Knob Creek, etc…


#11

JFL,

What is the length of the core?

Also in the picture of the 2 cores and intact projectile, note the existence of a slight ring depression in the bullet jacket above (to the right of) the knurled seating cannelure which, as Matt said, may be the result of resizing the bullet.

Brian


#12

Matt the proj. here does not resemble any 7.62x54R AP I do know of (of course I am not the scale for all this).


#13

[quote=“EOD”]
Matt the proj. here does not resemble any 7.62x54R AP I do know of (of course I am not the scale for all this).[/quote]
True, I couldn’t find a 54R AP projectile with such a pointed core either, but I didn’t know if it was a API, or a 7.62x39 from somewhere? The steel jacket is what lead me to think that, if that is what I am seeing.


#14

Iron jackets are very common outside the US. So I assume there is lots of possible candidates for this one.


#15

I think, it is the second type of the socalled P80 AP, from FN.
Same type was made by Portugal…

The second type of FN had a long core like this one and NO lead behind the core…

Look at VPAM 2006 requiremnets for plate tests.

There you find this type of bullet…

Weight is inside the specs (9,45Grams +/- 0,1Grs)
and core lenght is correct for that…

Newer and older variations of the P80 have a lead slug BEHIND the shorter core, and subsequently are heavier, as this on. They ( first and after 2009 variations) usually run in the 9,65 to 9,8Gram weight specs…

This is given in VPAM 2008 and 2009 Specs

FN has loaded sometimes CBC AP-Bullets, but still called it their P80 Type AP-bullet…

In fact, up to now, are 4 different Bullet types from FN, all called P80, but having various bullet weights and cores…
But the one shown is very close to the ones we have for testing in stock,except it does not have a knurled ring. It has a normal smooth cannelure.
Hardness is between 705 and 758 HV…

Peter

[quote=“JFL”]Hello,

thanks for these first information.

I wanted to identify this .308 Nato Armor Piercing projectile that I expected to be M61 ; according to the T29 drawing which should have become M61, this should not be the case.

Any idea about the type of this AP projectile ?

total mass 9,4g (145 grains)
core mass 4,6g (71grains)

Thanks in advance for any help.[/quote]


#16

Thanks Peter, exactly the kind of information I needed since these AP projectiles are intended to be used for armor testing and it would be nice if this could fill a VPAM level.

Good hint about Portugal and actually I have the same core for type 352 and the only difference is the smooth cannelure on the Portuguese round.

So far we only use FN P80 with short core and back lead filler. I would be most interested to have some more details of the other types of FN AP’s still keeping the P80 nomenclature and having longer cores.

I confirm that these projectiles are definitively .308 Nato and the jacket is copper clad steel.

Thanks in advance for any help.