Dwm 471c


#1

I would like to thank John for wrting the artical onthe 7.65 mm Glisenti round. Could the “C” suffix be the key? DWM used letter suffixes for some of thier experimental rounds like the Mauser export DWM 487A,B,C, &D. The 471C may be just an experimental round to enhanse performance of existing guns with minimum machining. In the late twenties Germany was still more or less under the treaty of Versailles, but looking for ways of circumventing the rules. This dosen’t answer the question of the drawing (fig 2) with the high shoulder round but it would put the cartridge in a logical time frame with the box label and explain the parabellum name. I would suspect the performance would not have been improved enough to justify the cost of rechambering and the project fell by the wayside. Seems like there may be a 471B to go between the carbine 471A round and the 471C, just speculation.


#2

The DWM drawing books show the basic 471 case along with a 471 1 and a 471 2 Exerzierpatrone cartridges. Then 471 A, B and C are then listed. The 471B is a subcaliber adaptor chamber.

Cheers,

Lew


#3

I am, of course, glad you liked the article. It was supposed to tell you all about the cartridge; by the time the research had ended, it was clear that I still knew almost nothing about the round, and that a lot of what we thought we know about the specific specimens that are in collections was patently false.

By the way, couldn’t have done the article without Peter Petrusic’s help. It is as much his article as mine, and I and the Woodin Labroatory thanks him for his assistance as co-author.


#4

I am sorry, I did not mean to slight Peter as co-auther. I am greatful to all who contribute.
I can see why DWM’s are popular to collect as they are difinitive id of a round. Is there a list of all DWM numbers with dates? All I have are those listed in Manual of Pistol and Revolver Cartridges by Jakob H. Brandt


#5

The most definitive works on the DWM case numbers are, of course, the DWM case registers themselves. These are available from GIG Publications (see Lew Curtis answer for address). Unfortunately the entries were not dated by DWM, but knowing when certain key calibers came out, it is possible to get within the ballpark on many of them. In the case of 471C, unfortunately, that did not match other elements of the mystery to be much help in dating the actual production rounds.

I published a list of case numbers known to have been used on auto pistol caliber headstamps in an IAA Journal. Don’t recall the number of the Journal, but you can probably find it if you have the Journals for the last five years or so. I only though ot that while I was typing this answer.

Remember that some calibers of DWM-made ammunition are not headstamped, even though they may have received a case number. The “Glisenti” is like that. While it is 471C, there is no headstamp on the cartridges themselves.

John Moss


#6

Would the 471B auxilery chamber help to ID date. According to Brandt’s Manual of pistol and Revolver cartridges the 4mm Ubungsmunitionor and the 4mm Ubungsmunition M20 were developed in 1920 and1921 respectivley. Are there examples of unheadstamped 471C cartridges? There is so much to learn about cartridges that I would rather know a little truth than a lot of guessing. I have to side with John that this round was probibly misslabeled. I will think of it as a 471C.


#7

MRT - Yes, all of the known cartridges from the two known boxes marked “471C” are without headstamp, and are of the case type previously known as 7.65 mm Glisenti.

The information about the 4 mm Übungspatrone is very good. Of course, we knew the “M20” was developed in 1920, but the fact the 471b was designed as a 4 mm Übungspatrone-caliber adaptor, and that it, too, dates from the 1920s, adds just another tiny bit of probability to the theory that, due to box design and other factors, the so-called 7.65 mm Glisenti rounds made by DWM are from much later than originally thought, probably the late 1920s, and therefore most likely have little or nothing to do with the Glisenti pistols. Although still in substitute-standard issue as late as WWII, the Model 1910 9 mm Glisenti Pistol was replaced by the Model 1923 Beretta of 9 mm Glisenti caliber, as far as I know. There was also a Model 1915 Beretta in 9 mm Glisenti caliber. In short, the late 1920s saw fifteen to twenty years of service of the 9 mm Glisenti cartridge in three different pistols and perhaps machine pistols and carbines as well. It comes at
least twenty-five years after the any trial of the Glisenti pistol in 7.65 mm of any case type!

John Moss