DWM n° 472


#1

By seeking information on the net, I came across this drawing in a Russian(??) forum (Cyrillic writing, sorry I did not record the name and the link due to an handling error).

It’s 8mm Lebel and, depending on the number and the German language used, I guess this a drawing came from a DWM document.

Looking through the list of numbers of the DWM for confirmation, I saw two entries for the 8x50R Lebel: No. 472 and No. 472A.

Has anyone already meets these 8mm Lebel cartridges or other DWM 8x50r Lebel made? And what the difference between 472 and 472A, unlike bullets I guess?

Domi


#2

Maybe differences in the case head as the one for the pointed projectile had a small circular groove? Just a guess.


#3

Domi, specimens of the 8 x 50 R Lebel cartridge headstamped DWM K 472 K are known but are extremely rare. This case number dates from c. 1900 and was meant to be used with the No. 260 bullet. The No. 353 bullet was a spitzer design and the 353A was an equivalent to “Balle D”, and both were also meant to be used with the No. 472 case.

I have seen the No. 472A case listed before but I don’t know the original source.

Edit: It seems that this last number originates from Datig’s copy of the DWM case book but there is no drawing and the description is the same as No. 472.


#4

thank you Fede for this info.


#5

On the 86D cartridge the full diameter ogive part of the bullet sits in a mushroom-like fashion on the mouth of the case. The rear part of the bullet has the smaller diameter of the old M bullet and is within the neck.

The 32N long range machine gun bullet had the balle D diameter on its entire shank. The case neck was made wider to accomodate this bullet. It could be that DWM number 472A reflects this modification. (MG chambers had to be modified, too. As far as I know the chambers of all rifles still in the inventory were changed accordingly to be able to use MG cartridges in an emergency.)


#6

Jpeelen, DWM case numbers followed by a letter are very hard to date but I don’t think that this No. 472A case was as late as 1932. In the late 1930’s DWM had designed bullet No. 600 which was titled “sS-Geschoß Kal. 8mm Lebel” and was meant to be used with case No. 596. However, this was a transcription mistake or was corrected later because this case number correspond to a 7,9 mm Mod. 24 sS case for Yugoslavia using bullet No. 604.

To summarize, DWM may have produced a Mle 1932 N cartridge in the 1930’s using bullet No. 600 but its case number is unknown. German production of this cartridge was materialized several years after and is well known by collectors.


#7

Maybe you are right, a circular groove to allow the use of pointed bullets with the Lebel tubular magazine.

Here you can see a headstamp of a n° 472 case: http://www.municion.org/8x50r/8x50r_1.htm. Are there other case known around the world?

Thanks all for your comments.

Domi


#8

Domi, the one shown is a new primed empty case that belonged to Manfred Beutter and according to him only two are known to exist.