Eley 7mm Experimental?


#1

I’m sure I’m having a senior moment and missing the obvious but I can’t ID this round. The headstamp is ELEY 7M/m (large and small m). The bullet has a wide shallow lube cannelure. Case neck is cracked and there is no powder. The bullet has an E stamped on the base.
I’ve got a vague idea it might be an experimental 7mm rd but I thought they had a longer case length.

Bullet dia: 7.22mm
Case length: 55.38mm
Rim dia: 12.05mm


#2

Weird hst!! I have Eley 7m/m’s with 60, 63 & 65mm caselegths but this seems within tolerance for 7 x 57mm Mauser. How heavy is the bullet - I would guess 150 grains. The three stab crimps are always interesting - usually a KNMCo hallmark - but sometimes used by Eley. I think this is probably an Eley ‘Marksman’ ctg - I wrote them up in ‘Guns Review’ some years ago -b ut don’t have a copy to hand here in the UK.


#3

Thanks for that.

I have seen the small m, large M on a 7mm Godsal rd, which is what I thought my rd might have been except the Godsal was 60mm not 55mm.


#4

The 7 x 60mm I have has ‘bog standard’ (. ELEY . 7M/M) hst. I have never seen that ‘7M/m’ hst before - WANT ONE!
Another thought I had after posting my last reply - the WW1 Eley contract for Chile - same bullet crimps & similiar hst…what is the bullet weight of your ‘7M/m’??


#5

I don’t have any weighing scales.

I forgot the “.” dots in the Headstamp, it’s . ELEY . 7M/m


#6

Are these variations called 7 x 57 mauser too?

Pivi


#7

John / Armourer

Here is my Eley round from the WWI Chilian Mauser packet. It is cordite loaded with a wad but I have not dis-assembled it to wiegh the charge.

Is this actually a contract for Chile or for the Royal Navy to use in the Chilean Mauser rifles that were impounded along with the warships that were building at Vickers in 1914? I thought the latter as the packet certainly indicates this.

Regards
TonyE


#8

Oh learned ones, you piqued my curiosity.
What pray tell is the 7mm Godsal cartridge?
Dimensions and a photo would be helpful.

Brian


#9

Brian

I wish I was a learned one ;-) , I was wrong to call it a Godsal cartridge (I think) there was an experimental Godsal rifle that was chambered for a 7mm x 60 cartridge.

homepage.ntlworld.com/ernest.ash … llpups.htm

TonyE

That has to be the best packet of ammunition I’ve ever seen. I think the rd I have must be a Chilean Mauser rd although I still can’t work out why it’s 55mm long.


#10

That IS a great packet! From the label content and the fact the label is in English, I would guess that it was made for British use, and was not a contract for Chile. Just a guess - remember I said that. I don’t know a lot about this metric rifle loads other than the 7.9 x 57, but I have seen contract labels and this one looks like straight British Military to me. JMHO.


#11

Are these variations called 7 x 57 mauser too?

Pivi[/quote]

???


#12

When war broke out in 1914 there were two Chilean warships building in the Uk which were siezed to become HMS Canada and HMS Eagle. Also siezed were the Mauser rifles and these were issued to DAMS (Defensively Armed Merchant Ships) and trawlers. The packet of Eley ammo is for these rifles and is without doubt a British military packet as the format and Broad Arrow shows. A facsimile of the layout and wording is here.

There is also a photo of a civilian crew at a dockyard practising fixing bayonets. Whilst most are armed with Ross rifles, two have Chilean Mausers. The one on the front rank nearest the camera is the easiest one to see.

Regards
TonyE


#13

Eley’s Loading Book has the following entry for the:
‘7m/m Chilean Mauser (Government) Smokeless’ - caselength 2.24 inches - loaded with Cordite MDT - minus 1.2 grains as loaded in .303 Mark VII - Pointed nickel bullet with one cannelure weighing 150 grains - one jute wad - bullet pressed into case & 3 stabs into cannelure filled with wax. (Bullet not dipped after loading) - overall length 3.10 inches - see note 26-5-15. (love to find that note!)
This is an interesting cartridge - I have sectioned a bullet - normal all lead core within a cupronickel envelope - but the weight of 150 grains is way above the normal 140 grains for the 7 x 57mm Mauser - why? I still think it’s possibly a ‘7m/m Marksman’ - since that introduced the 150 grain 7mm Mauser for target shooting. Since Eley’s were already geared up to manufacture the 150 grain - why not use it for the Chilean rifles? I have never come across an Eley 140 grain 7m/m spitzer bullet. Also that headstamp…I have seen quite a few of the Chilean type rounds - never with that headstamp.


#14

JP-C: So there then is no evidence Eley supplied a cartridge with a 150 gr. bullet to Chile as a standard military loading? This exists only because the navy had the rifles and needed ammunition for them? JG


#15

[quote=“Armourer”]Thanks for that.

I have seen the small m, large M on a 7mm Godsal rd, which is what I thought my rd might have been except the Godsal was 60mm not 55mm.[/quote]

Godsal was a designer who worked for Webley & Scott. I have this drawing of a 7mm round for the W & S automatic rifle that has a case length of 2.5 inches, or 63.5mm.

Is that the round you were thinking of? The .276 round mentioned in the link you posted seems to have been one of the 1908-1913 .276 inch rounds that became the Pattern 13 (RL 18000C)

Regards
TonyE


#16

If Vickers was building two warships for Chile, which were then siezed, why were the Chilean rifles here? Any why are the cartridges labeled “For mine sinking only”? Could they not be used to shoot at any enemy sailors that British civilian crew armed with Chilean Mausers may have encountered?


#17

TonyE, I seem to be somewhat confused about which calibre goes with which weapon…those senior moments just keep coming :-)


#18

Chile contracted with Vickers for the supply of the cruisers prior to 1914…the ships were almost complete in 1914 at the outbreak of war; the British promised Chile that their ships would be returned at the Cessation of Hostilities or replaced if lost in the meantime.

The Chilean Rifles were Steyr (Austro-Hungary)-made Mauser M1912 Chilean contract rifles, cal. 7x57 Mauser. Vickers like any self-respecting Arms maker, had connections (Financial and commercial) with all the Arms makers of Europe…Hence the Mausers as part of the Arms Locker complement of the Chilean ships…Chile was a “Mauser” Nation.

Another example is the socalled “Vickers Luger” Pistol, for Holland in the early 1920s…Vickers’ association with Germany’s DWM allowed the supply of assembled Luger Pistols, carrying the Vickers name, to Holland in 1923, from parts made/accumulated by DWM during WW I, a matter formally prohibited by the Versailles treaty (all such stocks of parts, guns etc, were supposed to surrendered and destroyed by the Allied Control Commission.

Arms Lockers usually held enough rifles on board to arm all the enlisted personnel of the crew, so several Hundred Rifles were involved per ship.

As the Ships were commissioned into the Royal Navy, they would have had the Mausers removed, and replaced by Lee-Enfields of earlier Models, as was common in the Royal Navy. The Mausers were used for “Mine Destruction”…Picked marksmen on small ships would “shoot off” the “Horns” of Sea Mines to explode them, once the Mine cable had been cut and the Mine floated to the surface.

The Royal Navy also used large quantities of 6,5 calibre Japanese Arisaka Rifles for training and arming small ships (Kynoch made ".256 " Ammo)

At war’s end, the Cruisers were returned to the Chileans (HMS Canada in Particular, and I think one other was a replacement, as the original had gone down in battle)…But the Mauser rifles were not supplied with the “redelivered” Chilean Cruisers…they got Ross Rifles, in .303 calibre ( M1910 Model, Mark III; those which had been withdrawn from Flanders because of problems with ammo tolerances etc.)

The Chileans were not in a position to complain, as Steyr could no longer supply Mauser rifles…the original ship’s Mausers had “disappeared” into the Surplus stream, and so the “Directorado de Armada” (Naval Directorate) in Chile numbered the Ross Rifles (& bayonets) with a new , “DA” serial Number…I have “DA 252” with matching Number bayonet…Ross Rifles in WW I were not Factory Numbered, a “store/issue” number being applied to the Woodwork, not the metal, upon delivery to a Depot.

So Chile can be said to be a (limited) user of .303 ammunition over the period 1919-1960s, when the Rifles were finally surplussed off…mine still shoots very well, despite its “LC” enlarged chamber, when I use close tolerance (ie Canadian or Australian) ammo. It is supposed that Chile continued to buy ammo (both 7mm and .303) from British Suppliers from 1919 onwards (examples of Kynock 7mm Chilean contract ammo are common)

As to the marking “Mine” etc, the ammo was probably loaded with care, to get good accuracy (lots selected on “Figure of merit” sytem): shooting a Mine Horn of about one to two inch diameter, six inches long, at a distance of over 100 yards, would take some accuracy…using Open sights. And the mine is Bobbing up and down in the water…very good shooting is required.

As shown, the label is a typical ISAA approved Service Label in layout and style. All ammo supplied to the British War Office carried such labels if it was made in Britain or the Commonwealth (then Empire).

A simple packet and a photograph have just enlarged my knowledge of Chilean ship’s armament three times…

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics


#19

A couple of points regardings Doc’s reply.

When the Chilean ships were commissioned into the Royal Navy in September 1914. the Mausers would have been replaced by Lee-Enfields, but only briefly, as Churchill ordered all SMLEs to be withdrawn from the Royal Navy and replaced by Arisakas in November 1914.

These were in due course replaced by Ross rifles, probably a mix of British Mark IIIB contract rifles and Canadian Mark IIIs handed to the British in exchange for SMLEs in France.

Whilst it is true that the Canadian Mark IIIs did not have a serial number, the British Mark IIIBs were serialed on the metal in the normal way.

Regards
TonyE


#20

Tony - never found any reference/evidence that Eley was commissioned to make 7mmM for Chile. I think the government wanted 7mmM ammo & Eley got the job - they had made it before (albeit with a pointed spitzer weighing 150 grains).
I have never seen the 7mm x 63 case loaded with the Hookham Patent blt as per the drawing - has anyone?? My example has the 150 grain spitzer.