Eley 8 Gauge


#1

gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt … =166570370
Hi everybody. I pasted an auction from Gun Broker here. I hope it works! Can anyone tell me if the cartridge is authentic? I am starting to learn about British shotshells and cartridges like the Paradox. Thanks!


#2

[quote=“Roundsworth”]http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=166570370
Hi everybody. I pasted an auction from Gun Broker here. I hope it works! Can anyone tell me if the cartridge is authentic? I am starting to learn about British shotshells and cartridges like the Paradox. Thanks![/quote]

Difficult to say from such a picture.
The case is real of course. But to say if it is a genuine one or recently hand loaded one is another story.

Anyway two things :

  1. absolutely no interest to have a case loaded with such a common ball
  2. 100 $ for such a thing (loaded or not) is a lot too expansive

JP


#3

It looks pretty much genuine, the only thing that may cause me some doubt is the colour. Red is not a typical Eley colour, the Eley 8 gauge cartridges I have seen were all a sort of rustic brown. Thats not to say one way or the other.

Also, the lack of printing is suspicious, Eley routinely print on all their loaded cartridges but leave the cases sold empty unprinted. Again, thats not a definative answer. However, combining the two points leaves me with the feeling that the case may have been made by Eley for supply to an outside loading company.

Another point which someone with an old Eley catalogue may be able to clarify. From memory, the Eley paradox (type) cartridges in paper cases I recall seeing had the projectile contained within the body of the cartridge and a roll crimp to hold it in, but no top wad. Not sticking out in the manner of a pistol round.

The primer looks quite recent, I would have said at a pinch post paradox era but I’m not sure how late they made these rounds up to.

$100? Well…


#4

[color=#0000BF]hello Vince,
here are some remarks[/color]

[quote=“VinceGreen”]It looks pretty much genuine, the only thing that may cause me some doubt is the colour. Red is not a typical Eley colour, the Eley 8 gauge cartridges I have seen were all a sort of rustic brown. Thats not to say one way or the other.

[color=#000080]8 gauge eley shotshells are of different colors : green , dark red, red, brown, green as you can see on the following picture.

the ctge shown on the website is red, it can appear a little bite more red than the ones you know because of the light;
It is in fact the same red as the ctge I show on the right which is no an Eley but an Eley Kynoch like the one on the web site.
[/color]

Also, the lack of printing is suspicious, Eley routinely print on all their loaded cartridges but leave the cases sold empty unprinted.

[color=#000080]The cases can be printed on the tube even if they are sold unloaded as you can see om my first picture
This second picture show another 8 gauge Eley-Kynoch with printing on the bottom (oly difference with the first one shown)
On the other hand you can have factory loaded ctges with no print on the side of the tube.[/color]

Another point which someone with an old Eley catalogue may be able to clarify. From memory, the Eley paradox (type) cartridges I recall seeing had the projectile contained within the body of the cartridge and a roll crimp to hold it in, but no top wad. Not sticking out in the manner of a pistol round.

[color=#0000BF]You can have paradox ctges with bullet within the tube or sticking out of the tube.
On the second picture you have such examples
I had also a paradox with lead bullet (instead of brass one as on the picture) but I trade it (I do not trust lead bullets, they are too easy to fake)
It is for that I said no problem fo the case but the bullet is another story.
[/color].

The primer looks quite recent, I would have said at a pinch post paradox era but I’m not sure how late they made these rounds up to.

[color=#0000BF]The ctge show on the webside is quite recent indeed, because Eley-Kynoch hstp is after 1927[/color]

$100? Well…

[color=#0000BF]What does mean “well” ?? You think it is a right price or do you think it is too expansive ??[/color]
[/quote]

jp


#5

my 2¢ is that it is not right. Bullet should be crimped in the case, & bullet doesn’t look right, however it might be a shooter someone loaded, but not ICI.
Plus it’s not an Eley case, or even a Kynoch case but an Eley-Kynoch as made by ICI. A double rifle needs a crimped bullet otherwise the left bullet moves when the right barrel is fired. Also seated out like that it would be for a fully rifled weapon not a Paradox. Fully rifled guns went away (gunmakers stopped making them) after the Paradox was developed. So perhaps loaded as a shooter? but not factory, & not worth $100. My 2¢.


#6

gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt … =166701811
I just bought this one for $5.00. Is this a Paradox? I went into the auction armed with very little knowledge. I have seen photos of cartridges for the Colindian, Explora, and Paradox guns in various articles in the Double Gun Journal. Thank you all for the very informative responses. Wow! I certainly do have a lot to learn about Eley, Kynoch and Eley-Kynoch.


#7

That’s the kind of crimp I’d expect to see on a paper cased cartridge making recoil in a double rifle…

Got no idea if that’s “original” or not but likely cool enough for $5!

Dave


#8

I would say the 12ga cartridge is undoubtedly genuine. That 12 ga case also has the older style copper primer which is slightly domed and the ICI logo. The 8 ga case has the much later flat guilded primer which I can remember from the 70s. The floor in my parents garage was littered with them.


#9

[quote=“Roundsworth”]http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=166701811
I just bought this one for $5.00.

[color=#0000BF]This is a very good price !!![/color]

Wow! I certainly do have a lot to learn about Eley, Kynoch and Eley-Kynoch.

[color=#0000BF]Me too !!
I would like to know for example the hstp for the years 1927 to 1934 when it was Imperial Chemical Industries and still not ICI.[/color]
[/quote]


#10

For anyone wanting to brush up on the history of the company(s) here are a couple of links to get you started.

www.staffshomeguard.co.uk/KOtherInforma … ochV2A.htm

www.eley.co.uk/about-eley.aspx


#11

Cool! Thanks for the links.


#12

These are genuine Kynoch (not Eley or E-K)

Headstamp is “Kynoch’s Patent No 8”


#13

If you are going after the big stuff, the expensive stuff, and you are a serious collector, do yourself a great big favor. Do not buy any more ctgs until you get the books on these ctgs. by George Hoyem, Bill Harding and the late Dale Hedlund. The $100> that you spend on these will be well worth the price. They, among others, are great books to have as reference tools and as a “defense” against fakes. While no system is perfect I would not spend any more cash on ctgs. until I did some heavy research. From personal experience there is nothing more maddening then to find out that you have spent good money on “garbage” i.e. a fake! Good luck!