Empty 9mm Box (Edited: Old box reused in 1940's.....label indicates one or more components are of Czech origin)

Hi dutch,
The print on your box Is very clear.
Is it possible to say that your; “lot 100,” box is dated 1940?

Sam3

No 1941.

Also the box itself was made in that year.
I think your box is an old one who was reused.

This is one of those cases where one would think the label contradicts the whole idea of secrecy of the identification of factories by using the coded headstamp manufacturer’s designation, in this case “dou.”. The “t.” in various lots identifies the bullet at least as being of Czechoslovakian manufacture.

I have not seen a 1941 “dou” case with the Czech CNCS bullet, which has a more rounded ogive than the normal German shape of the period. However, I have this Czech bullet loaded in a case “dou. St+ 26 42.” As the headstamp shows, it is a steel case. You also find CNCS bullets, although with an ogive more like the German bullets, in “P14A”-coded brass cases. This was an early code replaced by “dou.” for Waffenwerke Brünn A.-G., Werke Povazska Bystrica, in what is no Slovakia. Again, your find the same bullet in brass cases marked “ak” for the manufacturer’s code, which is the code for Munitionsfabriken vormals Sellier & Bellot, Prag, Fabrik in Vlasim.

That is really a nice label. I am assuming from what I can see on the label, that the box held brass-cased ammunition, rather than that with steel cases.

John Moss

Somewhere between cartridge lot 10 and 34 from 1942 a change must be done with the bullet.
On the box label the (t) is not printed anymore.

As far I know, only 9mm cartridges with steel cases were made with a black bullet “m.E.” during that year.

From the optic I don’t see any differences.

Who can help with a light in the dark room?

dou42
dou42-1

1 Like

Hi dutch,
Do we have a date when these 16 cartridge boxes (9mm) were first introduced?

Sam3

Before WW1.

This box is for the Pistol C-4
Lew
Pict. court. Lew

I was not clear in my posting, as I forgot to mention that all the cartridges from P14A and ak I mentioned are pre-1942. However, the “dou. St+ 26 42” IS loaded with a more-rounded ogive CNCS projectile as I mentioned in my entry. To my knowledge, it is genuine. I believe the identical round was in the Woodin Collection - I recall getting my round some years ago from Bill - and I think Lew Curtis has one, although his 9 mm Headstamp guide does not show lot number 26 of 1942 at all. However, that page of his guide, page D002-2, was printed (in my copy) October 15, 1996, so is 23 years old.

I hope Lew will verify whether or not he, too, has this CNCS-bullet “dou.” cartridge.

John Moss

A possibility could be: they still used cupro-nickel clad steel jacket material under the black color. When this was exhausted, the (t) was dropped. Alas, I know of no way to find this out without destroying some cartridges and bullets. I assume the inside was not blackened and should show cupro-nickel or tombac.

Another possibility is overlooking to change the label at the correct time and doing it much later.

The bullet gleams dead white, indicating to me likely to be a chromed bullet jacket. There is no coloration on my specimen, and never has been. Further, as I mentioned, the bullet ogive is not the tradition German forum, which both ak and dou. duplicated in most of their ammunition.

My take is that it was either a contract done for another country, perhaps a neutral like Sweden or elsewhere, or perhaps a loading for Czech police or some other agency than the military, or that they simply encountered a shortage of the standard bullet used at that time in m.E. 9 mm, and substituted Czech-style bullets to meet delivery schedules. I can’t think of any other reason for it. I will reiterate here that I believe this round to be original - that is, never tampered with - as well. However, I have not seen a box label for this case lot (26 of 1942).

John Moss

John,
your observation is not doubted at all. I fully agree with you that the original Czechoslovak 9 mm Parabellum bullet had a different shape.
The open question was Dutch’s observation, if I uderstood it correctly, that the blackened 08 mE bullets with the typical “German” shape still were labeled 08 mE (t) as late as cartridge lot 10 of 1942 (bullet lot 4 of 1942).
In my last message I simply offered my speculation how this could have come about.

Peelen - sorry. I misunderstood what you were referring to. When you said “I assume the inside was not blackened and should show cupro-nickel or tombac” I thought you were referring to my specimen dou. St+ 26 42 with a silver-colored bullet of Czech ogive.

John

16 9mm Patr. f. Pistole C/04 (9mm Patronen fur Pistole Construktion / 1904; “9mm Cartridges for C-04 Pistol”)
The Pistole Construktion / 04 is the 9mm M1904 “Navy Model” Luger.
D.W. & M.K. (Deutsche Waffen- und- Munitionsfabriken, Karlsruhe) made the propellant (I think R. Bl. P. P. stands for Rauchschwaches(?) Blattchen Pistolen Pulver; “Smokeless(?) Flake Pistol Powder”) [Batch 101657] (I think Lew or Fede discussed the R. Bl. P. P. code before on a WW1 9mm Parabellum thread and there was no solid data about its actual meaning).
Grotzingen is the manufacturer of the Bullets (Gef. = Geschosse) Loaded (Gef. = Gefertigt) the cartridges on [August 30, 1910] and Primers (Zündh = Zündhütchen) [either June, 1910 or Lot 6, 1910]. Since Grotzingen is the name of a town near Karlsruhe, it might be part of DWM.

The merged three-part label reads as:
16 Pistolenpatr. 08 m. E. (t.)
dou 100 L. 41
Nz. Stb. P.n /A (0,8*0,8) ref 1940 L. 6
Patrh. dou. L. 41 Gesch. dou 6 L. 41 (t.)
Zdh: dou 55. L. (41?)

16 Pistol Cartridges M1908 with Iron Core (Pistolenpatronen '08 mit Eisenkern) (Czech manufacture)
[Assembled by] Brno - Lot 100 (Lieferung), 1941
Nz. Stb.P. n/A (Nitrozellulose Staubpulver Stäbchenpulver, neuer Art > “Nitrocellulose Stick Powder, New Type”) grain dimension (0.8mm x 0.8mm) [made by] WASAG Lot 6, 1940
Cartridge Case (Patronenhulsen): Brno Lot?, 1941; Bullets (Geschosse): Brno Lot 6, 1941 (Czech manufacture)
Primers (Zundhutchen): Brno Lot 55, (1941?)

dou = Waffenwerke Brunn (“Brno Armory”), Bystrica, Czechoslovakia (1938-1945).
rdf = Westfaelische-Anhaltische Sprengstoff AG (WASAG), Werk Reinsdorf - Reinsdorf, Thuringia, Germany.
(t) = Tschechoslowakische Ursprungs “Czechoslovakian Origins”. Beute (Loot) code for seized or manufactured Czech war materiel.

Sidney, your intention to help is doubtless appreciated, but Dutch is a fluent speaker of German and arguably has one of the (if not “the”) most complete collection of German military headstamps and labels in the world.

P.S. “Stb.” stands for Stäbchen
“n/A” neuer Art

Jochem, while you are entirely correct I think Sidney is just not familiar with all the special interests and expertise of the frequent users here.

The abbreviation Gef…means NOT Geschosse (bullet)…it means "gefertigt/filled/Loaded…
at Grötzingen…
You should read the old thread about 1904 ammo here:

Cases and bullets where made at DWM Karlsruhe plant…
So, in the whole Carlsruhe/Karlsruhe area where 3 ammo plants (Geco/Durlach/ The Ehrmann/Lorenz/DWM-Plant and the Grötzingen Facility, whereas only the DWM-Plant and the Grötzingen plant belongs together…
pp

With Gef. thought it was a case of the “olde letter F” means “S” thing.
I was already aware of Gefertig from the East German 9mm boxes , but once you start to decipher the WW2 boxes, it kind of gets you in a mindset. I thought the facing left side was for the components. and it made sense for the bullet manufacturer to be with the primer manufacturer.
I’ve seen Stb.P. translated as either Stäbchenpulver (“Stick Powder”) or Staubpulver (“Dust Powder”); the 0.8 x 0.8 dimensions made me think of a round or flat object rather than a cylinder or rectangle, which is why I went with Staubpulver.

PS: What metric measurements are used for the powder grain? Is it in millimeters or is it smaller?

The dimensions in German propellant designations are given in millimeters.

JPeelen,
Thanks. I thought so, but I wasn’t sure (thus the lack of markings on the dimensions). It’s hard for a person who thinks in standard measures to conceive of metric ones.

Also, my notations here are for two groups of people

  1. People who might have trouble reading or comprehending the labels.
  2. Tyros who don’t know anything about the subject being discussed who want to learn.

I’m not doing it to step on anybody’s toes.

The big problem we have here is that there are a lot of grognards who have a lot of head knowledge or resources on these subjects who discuss them like everyone’s on the same page. That’s one of the reasons I post questions, so somebody who sees an interesting post will get the full story about the subject from the heavy hitters. There are items on here that you don’t see very often (if at all) and we should spread the knowledge around.

I agree with your intentions and did not intend to imply you were stepping on anyones toes.