Not trying to be snide by any means, but why, with all of its knowledge, does this group not have a English version of the Spanish Municion.org. I spend most of my time identifying cartridges there, because even with Spanish translation, it is easy to locate, find basic information, measurements, and compare pictures of cartridges and headstamps. I know there are many private sites that attempt to do this, but most are far from being as comprehensive as Municion.org. Just curious. Love the discussions here, but sometimes it can be very time consuming finding basic information on the more common cartridges most of us encounter.
I’m not an officer of the IAA any more so can share my own thoughts without committing the IAA one way or another.
Remember, the IAA is an all volunteer organization. It could create the English equivalent of Municion.org if that was a priority. The IAA could do a great number of things. When I was an officer, I tried for a number of years to find volunteers to take on the update of the headstamp code list on the IAA website, unsuccessfully…
Remember also that the IAA is incorporated as a tax exempt social organization (A 501c7 organization under the regulations of the IRS). This places a number conditions and restraints on the IAA, including the IAA Forum with the principal being that the things it does must be to serve it’s members. Originally, the justification for the public access website and the public access forum was to attract new members. The IRS has accepted that argument. I am not involved anymore, but I suspect that any public access website service provided must be defined in terms of the value/services it provides IAA members to make the IRS happy. The IRS requires an annual submittal that provides this sort of information. Do they check, only rarely as far as I know. Still, if they did and the IAA was found wanting, an all volunteer organization may not survive.
The good and bad about an all volunteer organization is that you can do those things, and only those things, you can find the people who not only want to do them but who have both the skill and the time.
Not to be snide, but there are MANY great things the IAA could do… And those, like the great IAA Journal, get done because there are lots of skilled and dedicated people who provide the information, do the editing, put the material together, and manage the distribution, and the financial processes to make it all happen.
An English version of Municion.org, or an update of the IAA website headstamp code list will happen when some people put a team together to put it together and maintain it over time.
Hope those people are out there.
That helps with my understanding of the situation. As one who works with volunteers all the time, I recognize the difficulties of pulling their time and resources. I don’t begin to know all the legal ramifications, but it seemed on the surface to be a benign addition. I love databases and thought such a site would be helpful. I recognize the group puts together a quality magazine. A basic info source was what I seeking.
The ‘search’ function on this site provides an excellent service and for more detailed information there are many expert in their own fields and interests of collecting who will willingly respond to a request for information.
It just takes a bit more effort than using Municion.org but the personal interactions make it far more rewarding.
Seeing as Municion has a LOT of errors and just plain wrong information, it would require not only translation but also a lot of correcting mistakes.
As Collector, I would like to give my own opinion too. This issue seems simple, but it is more complicated than meets with a naked eyes seems. I understand perfectly the viewpoint of wag0152. When a collector searching for a particular caliber, need a data base where he can find measures, photos (for contrast) and if it is possible, some history about this cartridge. Municion.org it is structured in that way, have a cartridges data base and a Forum where you can ask for any cartridge or other theme. The problem…Munición .org is a web own (private), which began as entertainment. The webmaster, has a little time (sometimes none) for update cartridges. To contrary to what may occur with other Webs or Forums, he has not financing of any kind, only his their own resources, namely,all the effort falls in a single person. Some time ago, we propose to webmaster about the idea to translate all information to English, for all collector had a data base in other language. He reply that it imply to find one server more modern with more capacity for this huge amount of data. Of course, that means a lot of free time and money.
As well tell you and Lew this is not to criticize or be sarcastic….It is to be realistic. Thanks to the dedication altruistic of some people, the collector have this sites.
I think so is in our hands contribute with “our grain of Sand” this type of webs and Forums remain more biggest every day
P.s. Yes, tennsats, you are reason, is posisble thet Munición.org have a lot errors, but you must understand that is impossible collate and verify all information one person,especially when perhaps no information about.
I like Municion a lot, and use it occasionally to ID some things, also Cartrology.com in that sense. That being said, an endeavor like that still only scratches the surface with a small minority of the known examples per caliber. Even Municion limits themselves to having only one “example” per headstamp type in certain cases whereas some headstamps exist with many, many lot numbers or slight variations. It’s almost best in the broad sense to use a forum template and just allow for those with questions to post open-ended inquiries or whatever photos they have, and await an answer. Slower than using a straight reference like Municion - yes, but it usually ends up allowing for more information from the ensuing discussion that evolves from the question, and any of 100 frequent experts can chime-in with their specific knowledge.
I wish there were an online master-reference comprised of photos from the likes of Woodin Lab, and a few other very large collections, but to digitize those and post online would be a full-time job for 3 people and take 3 years. If I win that Powerball lottery though…
Speaking of the Woodin Lab, are there ANY references, of any sort (online, or book/encyclopedia set, ect.), to Mr. Woodin’s collection?
It would be impossible to design a website or a guide to please everyone. We all have different issues and needs. For example, I designed my headstamp guide to find the manufacture and general information on a cartridge and the basic variations…not to be so detailed as to include every lot number, caliber and year made. It would be a daunting journey. However some people want this. Some do not and only want the basics as it really depends upon the individuals needs.
I know Municion.org is run by a very nice guy on a volunteer basis as well. He does a good job and like every collector does not know everything. He has asked me and others questions many times to try and get the correct information and does a great job with the time he has. He often uses the headstamp photos from the forum and enters them into the sections. If people do want to see more detailed headstamps, such as years and different calibers, lot numbers etc., publish them in the forum and I bet the data base will be built up and entered in to the caliber sections…it is really up to the users is what I am saying. The site is largely built by user input.
As Lew was saying with the IAA and volunteers, I was one who was going to offer to assist to help update the IAA headstamp list. I too have limited time and decided against it as the publishing of the site and the format required (I have some tech ability but not knowing the programs the IAA uses was difficult) and thus having to work with many people to try and get this done from afar, made this effort an exercise in futility. (To the IAA board, I may be willing to offer the use of the basic text in my headstamp guide to help update the IAA site…where only some basic data entry would be needed…If interested and to discuss details, … please email me).
First, I never intended to criticize Municion.org. I understand how it was structured and it is a great accomplishment. I have contributed to it in the past. It is a wonderful asset for all of us to use. Keep up the good work!
Like all of our resources, including books and publications, Municion inevitably contains errors. My personal opinion is that it is our responsibility to help correct those when they occur. It is up to the webmaster to decided if the suggested corrections are accurate and supported with better information.
My intention in my earlier reply was to point out that there are many suggestions on what could or should be done, but they always seem to far outnumber the people who are willing or able to invest the time to do them.
My opinion is that the IAA leadership, including our web master and moderators and other officers and workers are doing a great job, as are those who run similar organizations all over the world.
A question was raised on the Woodin Lab collection. The only extensive documentation of this collection that I know of was done by the European Cartridge Research Association (ECRA). The ECRA has spent considerable money over the past 20+ years creating a cartridge database. As part of this effort, they funded a researcher/photographer to make multiple trips to the lab and spend weeks documenting items for the database. They sell the database as a means of funding this ongoing effort. For more information you can contact the ECRA. They have an ad in each IAA Journal.
Curtis, You put your finger on it, and I thank you for your past efforts and your willingness to help.
Dave, unfortunately not in the detail seen when you pull open a drawer, any drawer, doesn’t matter which drawer, any drawer.
So other than the three volumes which Mel is offering for sale (see his advert on the B/S/T forum), nothing on line.
Frank did most / all? of the writing, Gene the drawings & the ammunition for the most part, is from Bill’s collection.
Lew’s post beat me to an answer however as far as I know the ECRA just notes case types, not all the variations. I once counted 50 different 8mm Japanese Maurata’s. As Bill collects world wide a large portion of the collection is not in the three volumes.
I used to have a direct link to Municion.org in my Bookmarks but I found myself using it less and less. For two reasons. One, it does contain errors. Two, it is too general in nature for me because I specialize in only a very few cartridges. It’s kinda like COTW. Great for a beginner but only a little useful for an advanced collector. Even the 1200+ pages of HWS 1, 2, and 3 are useful to only a few collectors.
But, bottom line is that the number of collectors willing to devote the necessary time and energy to research, and the compilation of that research for others, is small and not getting any bigger.
I totally agree with Lew. Thanks to the work desinterested of a lot people: leadership, moderators, web masters, editors etc, etc. We can (for example)discuss about this topic. If someone does not have worried designing this web, that would be impossible. It´s work “in the sadows” that you can not see but IS THERE !!
And I beliebe that is our responsibility continue to help to all site in any way.
I still class myself as a novice in the cartridge collecting world, when I first started seriously collecting around 8 years ago I was amazed at all the information on the internet with the different cartridge websites, the forums and individual pages of reference information. This has grown in the past years and I for one am really thankful for all the effort individuals and groups of people have put into these sites. Since taking on the reference collection passed to me from some of the most knowledgeable SAA collecting in the UK I have learnt a great deal more but I have to say it takes a lot longer to look through documents and files and drawings than it does to do an internet search. It looks to me like we have it a great deal easier to search for information these days.
I have spent over 200 hours in the last few months just cataloguing and indexing around 3000 documents, it is a massive task for an individual and I still have around 27000 still to do. My point is that we should be very thankful for the massive amount of info out there on the internet, yes some of it is incorrect but it is down to us to look through it then we talk about it on the forums and hopefully we can work out what is correct or not. It is a great feeling to learn something from someone that is on the other side of the world to me, knowledge is to be shared. I am sure as technology improves we will see central information sites for ammunition and many other collecting area’s but for now we have to do a little investigating and I for one really enjoy having to hunt round for some info on a cartridge that I have, I think it is fantastic when we all discuss and identify what interesting rounds we have found.
Lew & Pete, thank you for the great explanations!
I can totally understand the fact of being there in person to view drawer-fulls of cartridges. And Mr. Woodin can without a doubt tell you about the history behind most, if not all the cartridges. It would be AMAZING - at the very least, to see for sure! (I did see a photo once upon a time, of Bill’s toilet seat - Simply ingenious!)
Dave, not to take anything away from the lab or Bill, but the toilet seat was at one time offered as a mail-order catalog product.
Still pretty cool, I wanted one too, (back when I was a bachelor), but it was a LOT more than I was willing to spend.
Jeeze! I can’t believe we’re talking about Bill Woodin’s Laboratory bathroom toilet seat. But just in case someone might think that Bill has some strange condition - he does not - I’ll explain that the seat is of normal size and shape. It’s just made of a clear acrylic plastic that the maker inserted various cartridges into as it was being molded, sort of like the encapsulated cartridge blocks we see from time to time.
I might also point out that the HWS Volumes end at Cal. .60, but the Woodin Laboratory goes way beyond that. There are countless 20mm, 25mm, etc. And the HWS Volumes cover U.S. military small arms ammunition, while the Laboratory includes an apparently endless of specimens from every country that even thought about making or using ammunition. For example, HWS Vol. III discusses the U.S. Navy experimental 9mm rocket cartridge similar to a Gyrojet, and Scranton’s drawing of one is used in Fig. 784 on page 533. The Laboratory has a drawer full of variations of the original WWII versions of this round, some of which can be seen on Lew Curtis’ excellent 9mm web site.
I use municion.org for the Cartridge dimensions only. The Other information (correct or erroneous as it may be) is subsidiary to my work in replicating Modern brass for Shooters of antique and obsolete calibres. And I check (where possible) against “Originals”, and/or their firearms.
An English version??? get a Copyright Licence from the Spanish organisation to translate it. ( and correct where necessary.)
A collector ( a serious one) who does not have at least a smattering of “Ammunition speak” in the European Languages cannot consider himself “Edumacated”
I can thank Gun and Ammo collecting for increasing my knowledge of European ( and Asian) Languages – some to Fluency, other just “Technical”, over the past 50 years.
Gong Hei Fa Cai