Experimental french ctges


#1

Here are some experimental French ctges.

We are here among rare items, not modern junk.

I hope it will interest some people.

Drawings from Jacques Barlerin.

Some of the ctges shown are known only by their factory drawings, some other belong to different french collectors.

Any comment or addition will be welcome.

I hope you will enjoy.

Let’s start by the 5 and 6 mm calibers

Then the 6.5 mm caliber

And to finish (for today !) the 7 mm caliber

As you can see the 6 mm, 6.5 mm and 7 mm are based on the 8 mm Lebel

The bullets made of two components are called bi metal

JP


#2

I’ll take one of each, please.


#3

Not all are available I told you
500 Euros each
jp


#4

You didn’t say that any were actually available, I was just joking. All are cartridges I would love to have in my collection, however.


#5

Very interesting topic of wich to little is known.
Thanks JP
Pascal


#6

Very interesting!!

Merci beaucoup JP

Domi


#7

I was joking also, don’t worry.
Nice to know an US guy is interested by such ctges.
jp


#8

Now here are some 6 mm ctges which are not based on the 8 Lebel case.

The rimmed cases :

And the rimmless cases:
(APX is for Ateliers de Puteaux)

Hope you enjoy.
JP


#9

I have been fascinated with French cartridges. Do you have information about bullet weights? Muzzle velocities? Are all of these cartridges experimental military only, or are some of them adapted for use as civilian hunting, sporting, target shooting type cartridges? Excellent drawings and topic. Thanks


#10

Info on velocity and so on I don’t have them anymore.
They were in the trials reports and I don’t think I have kept them because I don’t collect this kind of ctges anymore.

About weight and loading I still perhaps have the factory drawings.
But give me time.

All of these ctges are purely military experimentals.

The drawings are not from me !!

JP
PS : You are the second american guy interested by this kind of ctges. Good !


#11

[quote=“jeanpierre”]
PS : You are the second american guy interested by this kind of ctges. Good ![/quote]

And how many French guy?

Domi


#12

And maybe even from Canada.

Beautiful rounds. Thank you for sharing them with us JP.

Paul


#13

I think any collector interested in military, metric-military, or experimental cartridges would be interested in the ones you posted.


#14

Hello jeanpierre
I’m another interested in your drawings.
You have always provided excellent information for those of us less knowledgable.

I’m not very knowledgable on French cartridges. This may be because I have very few publications in english that discuss French cartridges except for Jean Huons excellent book.
Are there any books you can recommend (in any language)?
I think that there are many of us interested. Don’t be discouraged.

I have been interested in Daudeteaus cartridges, mostly because I know nothing about them.
This is my list of Daudeteau cartridges.
I do not have dimensions for most of them and I would like to get images of any I can.
Can anyone recommend any publications on Daudeteau?

Are there any more Daudeteau cartridges to add to the list?

6mm Daudeteau No. 11 Semi-Rimmed
6.48 x 51.5 Daudeteau No. 10 1891
6.5 x 53 Daudeteau No. 12 1895
6.5 x 65 Daudeteau No. 14
6.5 x 53.5 Daudeteau French Navy
6.5 x 64R Daudeteau Long
7 x 53 Daudeteau
7 x 53.6R Daudeteau No. 12 Experimental
7.7mm Daudeteau No. 5 Rimmed
7.7 x 60R Daudeteau No. 8
7.7 x 58 Daudeteau No. 8 Rimless
8 x 59.3R Daudeteau No. 6
8mm Daudeteau No. 2 Rimmed
8 x 52 Rival - Daudeteau
8 x 60R Daudeteau No. 1

Thanks all for your assistance!
Brian


#15

[quote=“clarkbr”]Hello jeanpierre
This is my list of Daudeteau cartridges.
Are there any more Daudeteau cartridges to add to the list?

6mm Daudeteau No. 11 Semi-Rimmed
6.48 x 51.5 Daudeteau No. 10 1891
6.5 x 53 Daudeteau No. 12 1895
6.5 x 65 Daudeteau No. 14
6.5 x 53.5 Daudeteau French Navy
6.5 x 64R Daudeteau Long
7 x 53 Daudeteau
7 x 53.6R Daudeteau No. 12 Experimental
7.7mm Daudeteau No. 5 Rimmed
7.7 x 60R Daudeteau No. 8
7.7 x 58 Daudeteau No. 8 Rimless
8 x 59.3R Daudeteau No. 6
8mm Daudeteau No. 2 Rimmed
8 x 52 Rival - Daudeteau
8 x 60R Daudeteau No. 1

Thanks all for your assistance!
Brian[/quote]

You know more Daudeteau ctges than I know.

What are these ones ?

6.5 x 53.5 Daudeteau French Navy
6.5 x 64R Daudeteau Long
7 x 53 Daudeteau
8 x 52 Rival - Daudeteau

About me I know
8 x 60R Daudeteau No. 1
8.1x 56.3 R Daudeteau No. 2
7.8 x 58R Daudeteau No 3
7.7 x 61.5 R No. 5
8 x 59.3R Daudeteau No. 6
7.7 x 60R Daudeteau No. 8
7.7 x 57.5 Daudeteau No. 8
7.7 x 56 Daudeteau No. 8
6.6 x 51.5 R Daudeteau No. 10
6.1 x 51.5 R Daudeteau No. 11
6.65 x 53.5 R Daudeteau No. 12
7.25 x 53.6 R Daudeteau No. 12
6.6 x 53.5 R Daudeteau No. 12
6.5 x 64.5 Daudeteau No. 14

Perhaps there are some others but impossible to check all listings at the moment.

I you check old posts on this forum you will find some drawings.

You see numbers 4, 7, 9, 13 are missing in the list.
Somebody has surely drawings of them, but i never saw one

JP


#16

Hello Jeanpierre,
I have collected information on Daudeteau from a variety of sources.

6.5 x 53.5 Daudeteau French Navy
6.5 x 64R Daudeteau Long
7 x 53 Daudeteau
8 x 52 Rival - Daudeteau

I think got the first three cartridges from Mack’s book on cartridge dimensions.

I found information on the 8 x 52 Rival (also known as the Rival-Mimard) from discussions here in the forum and at municion.org.
The 8 x 52 Rival cartridge was based on the 6.5 x 53.5 Daudeteau case necked up to 8mm.
It is not a common cartridge as only about 1500 “Carbine Rival a Repetition” rifles were chambered for it.
It was produced by SFM for the Manufrance Rival Carbine. Cartridges do not have a headstamp.

I have some SFM drawings for Daudeteau cartridges from the munavia website, but not for the whole series of cartridge.

All the best,

Brian


#17

Hello Brian,

The Rival, I know of course.
I didn’t know it was called Rival-Daudeteau.

Check carefully my list

You will see there are two ctges not on your list
7.8 x 58R Daudeteau No 3
7.7 x 56 Daudeteau No. 8

And on your list there are two ctges not on mine
6.5 x 64R Daudeteau Long
7 x 53 Daudeteau

What is the name of Mack’s book ???

JP


#18

Hello Jeanpierre,

Thanks for your information.

The book is “Cartridge Case Measurements”, 1989, by Dr. Arthur J.Mack.
A few folks here in the forum have said to be careful of the information in the book.
Information in the book may not be totally accurate. I found many cartridges listed were duplicates of others in the book but with different names.
The book consists of endless tables of cartridge names and dimensions.

Here are the dimensions I have for the 6.5 x 64R Daudeteau Long.
inches mm
Rim Diameter: 0.488 12.4
Base Diameter: 0.488 12.4
Shoulder Diameter: 0.448 11.4
Neck Diameter: 0.295 7.5
Bullet Diameter: 0.262 6.7
Case Length: 2.533 64.3

Here are the dimensions I have for the 7 x 53 Daudeteau.
inches mm
Rim Diameter: 0.526 13.4
Base Diameter: 0.490 12.4
Shoulder Diameter: 0.448 11.4
Neck Diameter: 0.314 8.0
Bullet Diameter: 0.285 7.2
Case Length: 2.091 53.1

I wonder if the 7 x 53 Daudeteau information I have is the 7 x 53.6R Daudeteau No. 12.

I have a number of names listed for the 8 x 52R Rival - Mimard, 8 x 52 French Daudeteau, 8mm Rival.

I will happily add your two new Daudeteau cartridges to my listing. Do you have dimensions, drawings or pictures of them?

All the best from the rainy North West.
Brian


#19

Is there any information available on French sporting cartridges, 7.5x51R “Berthau” or perhaps it is “Berthod” and how about 8x60R Reiger? There seem to be a multitude of variations on the 8mm Lebel cartridge in 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm and the 7.5mm Spartek. There were loadings of the 8mm Lebel for target and hunting. Were there any variations on the 8mm Lebel which were the neck was expanded to accept bullets larger than 8mm? i.e. 9mm Lebel? Or something similar?


#20

Hello Brian,

Here is an old document I wrotte for myself about the Daudeteau ctges I was aware of with their exact measurements

Name Drawing CL Bu Diam
N°1 8 x 60R 8002
N°1 8 x 63R 8077 A 63 8
N° 2 8 x 56.3R 8077 A 56.3 8
N°3 cal 7.5 7.5 x 58R 8077C 57.8/58.2 7.5
N°5 7.85 x 61.5R 8003 7.85
N°8 cal 7.7 7.85 x 55.5R 8006 55.15/55.75 7.85
N°8 7.85 x 57.5 8004 57.2 / 57.7 7.85
N°8 cal 7.7 7.85 x 55.9 8005 55.65 /56.15 7.85
N°10 cal 6.48 6.6 x 51.5R 8009 51.5 6.60
N°11 cal 5.98 6.1 x 51.5R 8008 51.5 6.10
N°12 cal 7 7.25 x 53.5R 8055 53.4/ 53.6 7.25
N°12 cal 6.5 6.6 x 53.5R 8054 53.4/ 53.6 6.60
N°12 6.6 x 53.5R 8044 53.4/ 53.6 6.60
N°12 6.6 x 53.5R 8044 53.4/ 53.6 6.60
N°14 6.6 x 64.5 R 8076 64.7 6.60

Because I’m collect only shotshells now, what I’m doing is sorting my library and putting on this forum documents before I get rid of them.
Perhaps the drawings you need are in the deepths of my library and I will post them when I put my hands on them, perhaps they are already gone.

I’ve not been collecting military ctges for at least 7 years, therefore I am not the best guy able to answer your questions.

But french military ctges collectors on this forum can answer your questions and supply you the drawings you need which are well known in France (Ecra bulletins, aso)
They have more info and documents on military ctges than I ever had.

Which country ?
Writte your country name in your description on the left

jp