Experimental u.s. center fire spam - dangerous


#1

DESIGNING PACKAGING FOR BIO/CHEM AMMO IS A SERIOUS ART. IF YOU CAN PACK SARDINES AND SPAM IN A CAN LIKE THIS WHY NOT AMMO?

This SPAM can was first designed for BIO/CHEM 30-06 ammo and later tested for a variety of other uses. THE AMMUNITION CAN BE AS DANGEROUS TO THE USER AS TO THE ENEMY. The ammo used in the packaging tests is 30-06 ball LC 57.At least 3 types of interior packing are known from specimens; 1) surgical gauze,2) special brown mottled paper and 3) white plastic foam.

LOTS OF MOTHERS TELL THEIR KIDS THAT SPAM WILL KILL THEM. WELL THIS KIND CAN.ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS OF VIET NAM WAS RESUPPLY OF FORWARD LONG RANGE RECON UNITS AND SNIPER UNITS. HOW TO DO THAT WITHOUT DRAWING ATTENTION TO THE UNIT WAS ALWAYS A MAJOR CONCERN. ONE ANSWER WAS TO BE ABLE TO DROP AMMO FROM ANY TYPE OF AIRCRAFT AND AT ANY HEIGHT AND HAVE IT LAND WITHOUT DAMAGE. IMPOSSIBLE YOU SAY? WHAT YOU SEE HERE IS ONE OF THE SUCCESSFUL EXPERIMENTS CONDUCTED BY THE LIMITED WARFARE LAB AT ABERDEEN PROVING GROUNDS.AMMUNITION INDIVIDUALLY WRAPPED IN SPECIALLY TREATED GAUZE AND SEALED IN A STEEL SPAM CAN.WE DROPPED THESE FROM ROTARY AND FIXED WING AIRCRAFT OF ALL TYPES AND MANY HEIGHTS WITH SUCCESS.NO PARACHUTE,NO SLOWING DOWN JUST A FLYBY AND KICKOUT.HOW DID THEY FIND THEM? VARIOUS THING WERE TRIED.NONE WORKED TOO WELL.EACH SEALED SPAM CAN CONTAINS 5 INDIVIDUALLY WRAPPED ROUNDS OF 30-06 BALL MADE AT LAKE CITY IN 1957.CAN-NEAR MINT-SHELLS-MINT. LATER IT WAS DETERMINED THAT THESE WOULD BE GREAT FOR SURVIVAL PACKS FOR LONG TERM STORAGE. TESTED AGAIN AND SOME OF THESE ARE STILL BURRIED BUT NEVER ADOPTED.TOO EXPENSIVE A WAY TO DELIVER 5 ROUNDS. THIS TYPE OF PACKAGING WAS ORIGINALLY DEVELOPED AT THE SPECIAL OPERATIONS DIVISON OF THE US ARMY CHEMICAL COMMAND,FT. DETRICK MD. FOR THE STORAGE AND TRANSPORT OF 30-06 M2 BIO CARTRIDGES. THERE MAY STILL BE SOME IN THE JUNGLES OF VIET NAM.

WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING

SHOULD YOU ENCOUNTER A CAN LIKE THIS IN ANY OTHER COLOR OR WITH COLOR MARKINGS DO NOT OPEN IT. TAKE IT DIRECTLY TO THE CLOSEST HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICE OR CALL THEM AND THEY WILL COME GET IT. THE CONTENTS CAN AND LIKELY WILL KILL YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.

THIS IS NOT A TEST. THIS IS DEADLY SERIOUS. THESE ARE THS MOST DANGEROUS SMALL ARMS CARTRIDGES EVER MADE IN THE US.

THE ONES IN THE GREY CANS WITHOUT MARKINGS ARE BALL ROUNDS FOR TESTING THE PACKAGING ANY THING ELSE IS MORE DANGEROUS THAN YOU WANT IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD. WEAPONS GRADE BIO AGENTS ARE UNFORGIVING.

NONE OF THESE WERE SUPPOSED TO GET OUT- BUT - A PACKAGE OF THE TRAINERS WAS FOUND IN AN OVERSEAS ORDNANCE STORAGE SOME YEARS AGO SO IT IS POSSIBLE THAT OTHER TACTICAL ONES ESCAPED AS WELL.

NOT GREY - STAY AWAY !


#2

CSAEOD–I have collected .30-06 for over 40 years and have never heard of Bio-Chem .30-06’s.Can you provide more information?


#3

2 bio/chem 30-06s were type classifed- M1 and M2. All information about such ordnance has been reclassified by the current administration. Some photos of the practice version of the M2 have been published in Gun Report and elsewhere but I have been enjoined by the government not to release any further information about these. There were 5 offensive bio weapons type classified for individual use during the 1960’s. The M1 bio cartridge has been one of the only secrets actually kept by the US military.

When I was writing my article about Gerald Yonetz( Head of the hardware Special Ops. Division,Ft. Detrick) for the Journal I asked the Pentagon for permisson to include the M1 and M2( which were invented and designed by the SOD team along with MBA) . They had no idea about it and I had to brief not only the FBI but also the Secretary of the Army. The answer from the Army for which these were developed was “no and hell no”.

I am also a long time collector and had never heard of these until Yonetz brought them to my attention.

Neither the M1 or M2 were ever used outside of testing due to the desire NOT to spread the technology.

I have articles ready to go on both should the classification ever be lifted. I doubt that I will live that long.

Don’t feel badly about not knowing about this stuff as ALL of the major collectors , the government and nearly all industry share that with you.

The offensive bio/chem program was killed in 1970 by the Nixon administration.


#4

Are you allowed to go into how one was supposed to fire these if they are as dangerous as you suggest?


#5

Both cartridges were designed to be fired from unaltered 30-06 rifles - single loaded - single shot.

Bear in mind that these were packaged over 35 years ago and in the case of tactical agents any seals used would have long since dried out. Opening the can could be a fatal surprise. They were not so dangerous to open when they were new although NONE of the folks at SOD were interested in the tactical agent tests most of which were conducted outside of the US. One man died of exposure to a tactical agent in development and they never were able to figure out how the exposure occured!


#6

Okay, so the bio agents were supposed to stay sealed until it hit a target, but still, I would not want one of these rounds in my house, or my neighbourhood for that matter.


#7

RIGHT YOU ARE.


#8

I have examples of these experimental test cans for sale on Auctionarms.com for anyone who wants. One of the few souvenirs of our offensive bio/chem small arms program which you will likely ever be able to own.


#9

YOU RULE CSA! That was beyond interesting and your knowledge of most subjects is OFF THE CHARTS! I, like the FBI, had no clue about such rounds or the creative delivery / packaging system. Thanks for the allowed knowledge. That was really facinating.

Jason


#10

I have to wonder what these “biowarfare” rounds would’ve had as a payload, or be infected with, that would’ve been more immediately lethal than a 152-gr FMJ? Botulism, anthrax, plague, and anything else that comes to mind, all take several hours (if not days) to take someone out of action. I can’t imagine any force using these and then baving to look forward to cleaning up afterwards, since the results would’ve hit THEM as hard as the force they were used against in the first place. Maybe that’s why the idea was dropped?


#11

Offensive bio weapons were not dropped for tactical nor strategic reason considerations but for political reasons. At the time of the end of the offensive program ( 1970) there were 5 type classified weapons for ground use and several more air weapons. In addition there were dozens of projects in development. Only the two 30-06 cartridges are of interest here. Although MANY types and calibers of ammunition were tested with a variety of projectiles and agents only two were type classified.

The toxic agents available for use in these rounds ranged from immediate lethality to incapacitating and longer term applications of lethality or incapacity as desired for target effect. Many bio/chem agents can not be detected and/or treated quickly enough for the treatment to be of any effect and some can not be treated at all. Most of this has been covered in detail in a number of books which are still available in the open press.

There is plenty of information about the subject available on line as well.

Bio weapons can have both tactical and strategic value in a number of situations and yes they do have many associated problems. The employment of such items in any caliber range requires a set of paradigms very much dissimilar from traditional weapons deployment. For example ; a bio weapon can render a location uninhabitable permanently - a major consideration.

A possible deployment for a rifle projectile with the ability to produce 95% lethality in a 100 person target venue(within 14 days) WITHOUT their being aware of the attack until too late is not difficult to imagine.

Think about that and it becomes more clear why the possibility of diffusion of the technology was not more enjoyed.

Yes, it is possible.


#12

[quote=“APFSDS”]YOU RULE CSA! That was beyond interesting and your knowledge of most subjects is OFF THE CHARTS! I, like the FBI, had no clue about such rounds or the creative delivery / packaging system. Thanks for the allowed knowledge. That was really facinating.

Jason[/quote]

We like to think that the military and government know everything about their history. This is not so. The mission of the government and military is CURRENT protection of the country. That means current use weapons are what they need to know and concentrate on. There is a history function in both the military and government which intersects with current missions at ceremonies and some specialized missions such as the uncovering of caches of old ordnance but , in general, history and much more so the history of technology is just a small aside to both the government and the military.

My experience is that the typical collector of guns or ammo knows far more than the typical military officer about those subjects. Of course current procurement officers will know detail about their mission which will be in far greater depth than a collector would but as far as general information about the universe of information in the field the collector will have the edge.

I know a retired Navy procurement officer on the 5 and 8 inch gun program who can put you to sleep with info about those guns of his time BUT could not tell you what a pinfire cartridge is.

Ammunition is a very specialized universe of study.

The information about bio ammunition was kept secret for a good purpose and with a success that amazes me given the holes which we find in nearly every “secret” program undertaken by our govenment.

Many of the test and limited use tactical weapons were purposely not type classified nor information classified in order to prevent more people from finding out about them through the classification process.


#13

Absolutely fascinating. I am curious to find out which agents in particular they used in these rounds, though I don’t want to get into trouble for asking too many questions ;)


#14

All of this information is available in the open press and can be accessed through a google search. There were (are) only a couple of bio/chem agents which are still secret , 99% of them have been published in detail. You can find more than anyone needs to know on line.

If you go to a research library or archive and inquire about this they are required to report you to the Homeland Security Dept.

If you search on line you can be sure that the DIA will find you in one of their files.

The government is VERY serious about this subject.


#15

Despite the fact that we have nothing to hide there are solutions to that:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpark
download.com/Torpark/3000-23 … 86816.html


#16

CSAEOD,
Thanks for the reply - I’ve had an interest in NBC warfare agents for some time but found the delivery of said agents via small arms projectiles to be a rather novel, ableit disturbing concept.

In regards to finding a spam tin which you described, I personally would not recommend showing up at a Homeland security office with it in your hands. Rather, I would bag it (very well), leave it in place (transportation could cause bumps to the tin which one does not want), and call your local HLS office and ask them how you should proceed. Walking into a federal facility, with a potentially dangerous item, even with the best of intentions, will probably mean being surrounded by men in MOPP gear asking you nicely to prone out on the ground. One should probably expect several hours with friendly agents in a well lit room at the very least…

Again, fascinating - thanks for sharing!


#17

Yes , true. How to act with unidentified dangerous munitions is a real paradox. Lots of folks leave them in bags near a police dept or Fire dept. - Not a good idea But does keep YOU possibly out of the picture. The big problem with that is leaving dangerous ordnance for someone else to find which might include ;kids , bad guys , REALLY bad guys, stupid folks , practical jokers. NOT GOOD. A good citizen needs to bring these things to the attention of the responsible agencies even if it means some inconvenience.

ALL WEAPONS ARE MADE TO BE DANGEROUS AND DANGEROUS MATERIALS SHOULD NOT BE LEFT FOR THE INNOCENT AND/OR IGNORANT TO ENCOUNTER.

In most cases the law enforcement folks are very considerate with civilians who come upon such stuff in their lives and turn it in. However, there is the risk of being prosecuted for “possession”. It is slight but there.

My concern with these bio packs is that they NOT BE OPENED. The grey ones are fine and as described BUT any other colors or color markings ARE FAR TOO DANGEROUS TO BE BOTHERED.

You are correct about leaving in place if possible and not taking into a building Federal or otherwise. If the seal is not broken on these the danger from an unopened can is very slight and the chance that any tactical ones got away is also very slight BUT you might recall the CIA Inspector General “finding” a quantity of bio toxin in an unused safe some years ago.

People steal things ,make mistakes and often show just plain poor judgment. We know from the “ANTHRAX LETTERS” that folks have the ability to bring their work home with them even bio agent work. If published reports are true at least some of the agent found in these letters was weapon grade. This is difficult to make and stay alive. It is not a garage lab project

There is no “shelflife” on most bio agents. Some are virulent for thousands of years as far as we know.

In any bio weapon the “containment” is subject to age,stress,storage and handling damage , any or all of which can produce micro fissures which enable the agent to escape. Weapon grade bio is in the micron size and micron fissures are invisible in the practical world.

I would rather deal with law enforcement than risk the fatal exposure of even 1 person much less the numerous possible casualties involved with such items.

The grey ones were surplused by the government many years ago and bought by gerald Yonetz (head of the bio/chem Special Operations Division, Ft. Detrick Md.- I have the receipt). I bought his supply from his public auction held at Jarrettsville Md. some years ago. I did not get them ALL. There were many mixed boxes of items sold. Some may have had these cans in them as well. So far I have not heard of others showing up.

Yonetz told me that there never were any AGENT LOADED tactical cans at Ft. Detrick and that the tactical packaging development and experimentation was done elsewhere- DUGWAY PG and PANAMA as I recall. I visited his home many times and he and his wife lived long and mostly healthy lives. He did suffer exposure to a bio agent early in his career but not a lethal dose. The HARDWARE and AGENT development projects were not combined at Ft. Detrick. Yonetz was head of HARDWARE.

The color codes and labeling for these tactical cans is still SECRET. I do know that any with COLOR other than grey should NEVER be opened outside of a bio secure lab.


#18

[quote=“Yute”]CSAEOD,
Thanks for the reply - I’ve had an interest in NBC warfare agents for some time but found the delivery of said agents via small arms projectiles to be a rather novel, ableit disturbing concept.

In regards to finding a spam tin which you described, I personally would not recommend showing up at a Homeland security office with it in your hands. Rather, I would bag it (very well), leave it in place (transportation could cause bumps to the tin which one does not want), and call your local HLS office and ask them how you should proceed. Walking into a federal facility, with a potentially dangerous item, even with the best of intentions, will probably mean being surrounded by men in MOPP gear asking you nicely to prone out on the ground. One should probably expect several hours with friendly agents in a well lit room at the very least…

Again, fascinating - thanks for sharing![/quote]

The experimentation for the use of small arms projectiles as offensive bio weapons began hundreds of years ago with soldiers dipping their projectiles in fecal matter, blood and various poisons (thousands of years ago if you include the spears and arrows in your definition of PROJECTILES). The official development program in the US began at Camp Detrick in the 1940s. This was joint work with the British and Canadians. The late Gerald Yonetz, long time IAA member , was there from the first to the last day.

See my article about him in the JOURNAL - " The American Q " .


#19

And do not forget bodies infected with the “Black Death” (Bubonic Plague) being catapulted over the walls of enemy castles in medieval Europe. Placing sharpened bamboo stakes covered with faecal matter among jungle leaf litter has also been a tactic of jungle tribesmen for hundreds of years, as most enemies would have walked around barefoot, making them easy targets for this ancient form of bio warfare.


#20

Thanks to your ( British) General Amherst who is credited with bringing bio warfare to America by providing the blankets of smallpox victims to the Indians. All a very nasty business.

Way off base from where I started with the sardine cans but interesting.