Fake 7.62X51 Flechette rd


#1

Thought this might be of interest. The rd is listed in one of Fred Datig’s books.

The headstamp is IVI 68, the primer annuls is white.

There are 13 brass “flechettes”


#2

This was one of the many ingenious fakes perpetrated by a guy from the Washington DC area in the 1960s - mostly on 7.62 NATO, .30-06, 45 ACP, 30 Carbine and .223 case.

They included a number of these flechette “canister” rounds (using old gramophone needles), plus teflon bullets in a variety of colors, plus the famous 30-06 die-marking cartridge and a host of others. See “The Cartridge Trader” issue #119 for a nice list. While the guy was exposed and promised to refund the money, many people decided to hang on to these novel and well-made fakes and they now turn up all over the world (saw one in Australia last year !).


#3

Chris,
Would it be possible to post that article as a “Sticky”?


#4

No need to make it a sticky. The Journal index should cover it, and this thread can be found by using the search tool.
Also, few people bother to read the “sticky” stuff anyway, so it just clutters things up.
Next time someone asks about these (and someone will), refer them to this thread.


#5

Just curious, why does someone go threw such trouble to make such high quality fake bullets? Are they fake because they are rounds that do not exist or are they fake because they are trying to emulate super rare, real, collectible rounds? Just curious. It seems like some are incredibly well crafted. I know nothing about this, but super interesting.

Jason


#6

I do not know why, but I guess to earn money selling them… Those guys are destroying ammo collection field. I’m only hope once time somebody will make research and publish book about fakes.
I guess in every field of collection where money could be earned there are fakes.


#7

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


#8

How funny. I think it looks kinda cool, even if it is a fraud. You have to give him points for ingenuity in any case.
Several years back, I made a handloaded 7.62mm ‘SLAP’ round using a black commercial sabot and one of the black tip SS109 bullets from an Igman 5.56mm round. It was purely for my own amusement of course. I don’t think I ever even showed it to anyone. The funny thing is, a few months later, I saw a round at a gunshow that looked exactly like my ‘fake’ one, and the guy who had it swore up and down that it was a genuine experimental military round.


#9

That’s the problem. Collectors sometimes make up a fantasy round for their own amusement, or assemble a rare round to “fill a hole” in their collection, but never permanently mark the “non-real” cartridge. Those non-original rounds often reach the collecting world and become full-fledged fakes. Once an unmarked and undocumented round leaves its originator’s hands there is nothing to explain its provenance or history.
Then there are the fakes that are made intentionally to fool and defraud other collectors.


#10

[quote=“Jon C.”]That’s the problem. Collectors sometimes make up a fantasy round for their own amusement, or assemble a rare round to “fill a hole” in their collection, but never permanently mark the “non-real” cartridge. Those non-original rounds often reach the collecting world and become full-fledged fakes. Once an unmarked and undocumented round leaves its originator’s hands there is nothing to explain its provenance or history.
Then there are the fakes that are made intentionally to fool and defraud other collectors.[/quote]

You’re right about that. I have mine stored with a description card saying that I loaded it and what components are present, but they could get seperated somehow. I’ll have to etch something in the casing to leave no doubt as to what it is. My best guess about the gunshow round I saw is that some less than scrupulous fellow had the same idea that I did.


#11

Faking is a big problem in our hobby. I have at least 15 9mm Paras in my collection that I believe to be outright fakes. Many of them are found in other collections too. One is always afraid to throw them out, for fear they could turn out to be real (that happened to me once - I did not throw out the two 9mm rounds in question, but had taken them out of my collection for destruction. On a visit at that time to the Woodin Laboratory, I saw the same two rounds, but with positive provenance. I am glad I had not destroyed mine).

I am always hesitant to purchase or even trade heavily for “rare” rounds that are only rare because of some colored marking, or could be made up at home. Of course, some rounds that look “cobbled together” are absolutely genuine, being ammunition factory lab experiments made with the same sort of loading equipment we have at home. My first 9mm Ultra (Post-WWII “Police” 9 x 18) was loaded in my presence at the SIG Factory in Switzerland in 1972, on standard RCBS reloading equipment made in Oroville, California (the same equipment I use), and given to me as a momento of my visit there. Other rounds exist that look like no one could possibly fake them, but are simply fakes made up by someone with good tools and good manual skills.

Then there is the problem of putting the wrong components in empty cases to improve their appearance.

any replica rounds made up by an individual or an organization should be distinctly marked as such, either through headstamp, as most of the clubs do, or by permenently etching or engraving the side of the cartridge, in large letters, “Replica.” As Jon pointed out, we do not retain cartridges for eternity. Someday, they end up in the hands of someone else!

Caveat emptor.


#12

I have seen photographs of early APG experimenters such as Gerald Gustafson and William Davis sitting behind their RCBS loading presses making some of the prototype SCHV ammunition. Those cartridges would be priceless to a collector of military experimentals like me but IDing them is a nuther thing altogether.

Fakes are a part of every collector field and something we have to work around. Nobody has a perfect answer to the problem.

Ray