FINLAND and the SS marked ammo


#1

One post on another site mentioned that Germany sold millions of rounds of 7.9 to Finland in the 40s and that most was the SS marked ammo. Anyone in FINLAND who can confirm ?


#2

If you are refering to DWM-made SS-headstamped ammo, this statement is not true. Finland bought a couple of million of 7,9 mm ammunition from Germany in 1941-44 for her air force, these cartridges had ordinary German headstamps. Among these cartridges there were types s.S., S.m.E., S.m.K., S.m.K.L’spur, P.m.K and B-Patr. Besides the cartridges for the air force Finland also bought captured Czech and Polish ammo from Germany, mostly ordinary type S. Furthermore 6,8 million Belgian FN-made 7,9 mm ammo (ball, tracer and AP) was bought during the Winter War.


#3

The SS was an NSDAP party militia with its own and independent logistics network/suppliers and no regular governmental armed force. So the owner of the SS marked SAA was the party, not the Reich.

Imagine the US political parties had their own militias, where during an ongoing war would the US government take ammo from to support someone else outside?

Hans


#4

Thank you. Have any of the SS headstamped cartridges been found in Finland ?


#5

[quote=“Hans”]The SS was an NSDAP party militia with its own and independent logistics network/suppliers and no regular governmental armed force. So the owner of the SS marked SAA was the party, not the Reich.

Imagine the US political parties had their own militias, where during an ongoing war would the US government take ammo from to support someone else outside?

Hans[/quote]

All very interesting speculation.

Please explain how the party supplied “their” units in the invasion of the Soviet Union.

Please provide “information” not just opinion.

Thank you.


#6

Practically none of this ammunition has been found in Finland. The only few crappy specimens I’ve been seen for sale at the gun shows are dug-ups sold by Russian sellers (and I really even don’t want to know where they have found them, not in Finland though) and some people from Lapland where German troops (also SS) had their own section of the frontline.


#7

DrSchmittCSAEOD

Hitler sent out the Waffen-SS to be the spearhead of the armed forces and in direct rivalry to the Wehrmacht. This is common knowledge in Europe and well researched, printed, and on the internet.

In her early days the Waffen-SS was supplied as mentioned by the own logistic organization, and only late in the war it was integrated into the Wehrmacht supply chain. Like mentioned earlier elsewhere on this forum the SS originally purchased material on the market just like a police, but after the occupation of Bohemia, Moravia and Poland it could exploit intact “own” resources located there because they were set under SS rule/control.

Not my intend to hold history lectures on this forum, so please allow me to stop at this point. There is plenty of requested information easily accessible elsewhere.

Hans


#8

Thank you. Were the shells found in Lapland the same SS headstamps previously known ?


#9

[quote=“Hans”]DrSchmittCSAEOD

Hitler sent out the Waffen-SS to be the spearhead of the armed forces and in direct rivalry to the Wehrmacht. This is common knowledge in Europe and well researched, printed, and on the internet.

In her early days the Waffen-SS was supplied as mentioned by the own logistic organization, and only late in the war it was integrated into the Wehrmacht supply chain. Like mentioned earlier elsewhere on this forum the SS originally purchased material on the market just like a police, but after the occupation of Bohemia, Moravia and Poland it could exploit intact “own” resources located there because they were set under SS rule/control.

Not my intend to hold history lectures on this forum, so please allow me to stop at this point. There is plenty of requested information easily accessible elsewhere.

Hans[/quote]

BACK TO THE AMMUNITION QUESTION OF INTEREST HERE.

The SS contract ammunition found on the Eastern front was more likely carried with the units on original deployment. There is no EVIDENCE which I have seen which shows duplicate supply organizations on the Eastern front. There is commentary about the conflict between Wehrmacht and SS units for the supplies available.

Like most “HISTORY” this is opinion called history. I quote one of our most prolific HISTORY writer, James Mitchner ; " I have written so much history than when someone disagrees with me I tend to believe them".

Everyone loves their opinion.

All we currently know about this ammunition which is based on FACTS is what we see from known specimens and where they were found. All else is SPECULATION not history. Repeating someone else’s opinion from a book or internet post is no more that OPINION.

SHOW ME SOME DOCUMENTS , BOXES, CASES , ORDERS . Opinions are for politics.

FACT ; no scholar of HISTORY cares enough about the production and distribution of SS ammunition to RESEARCH the extant documents. ONLY we
ammuphilia sufferers even care about this.

We do know from insitu evidence that the SS units carried with them Czech.,and Polish ammo as well as their own marked ammo AND assorted German ammo of all types.

There exist prestine examples of ball rounds of the DWM hs and the TV hs blanks. Where did they come from ? I have some which I believe came years ago from Dr. Windish , I am not sure. There are enough of them that there should have been a box. I would love to see that label.

The recent discovery of TV hs ball rounds after years of speculation about the blanks and the few TV ball loads without crimps which were known was enlightening. The manufacturer , thought by some to be RWS ( why I don’t know) certainly did make both TV hs ball and blank without maker identification.
From specimen examination it appear so far that DWM did not make blanks with the SS hs.

None of the German firms were known to be shy about promoting their work and so why leave off their own identification and include only the SS markings.
That is the great mystery of this ammo.

The DWM story is clear. Quant (owner of DWM) was a Himmler insider. Why did they not make all of the ammo OR did they ?

Possibly they made the TV hs ammo without maker marks for the TV concentration camp units and did not want to be openly associated with it. By the late 1930s it was well known what was happening in those camps. Quant in his wisdom refused a General’s commission in the SS when offered by Himmler. This kept him out of prison after the war when the SS was tried.

That is my opinion of the day. I may have another tomorrow.

Please find some documents and prove me wrong !


#10

As far as I remember, the headstamp was DWM 1938 SS. I wasn’t that interested in unburied relics because I already had pristine DWM 1938 SS and DWM 1938 SS-TV headstamped s.S. rounds in my collection, bought years ago from a French collector at one of the ECRA meetings.