First post...Herters


#1

Hello folks…I’m from North Carolina, 63 and long time shooter, though not a very experienced reloader…but one thing that really interests me. I assume many of us here are old enough to remember the orignal Herter’s Inc of Waseca, Minn. I spent many hours of my youth browsing though the descriptions written by George Leonard Herter himself…(Such was the claim anyway. "Every word of the catalog and his numerous books were written by GLH) and I am, in a very small way, a collector of Herter goods…especially his books…

and in his books, (ah…finally he gets to the point) he makes references to certain Herters calibers, called "Ram Magnums.’ I have found reference to a ‘.247,’ a ‘.270,’ a ‘.300,’ and a ‘.473’ But, I have Herter catalogs, (the full yearly ones) from 1962, 1964, 1965, 1967, and 1969. Nowhere in those catalogs do they list loading dies for any of these calibers, or brass…I also have a copy of Frank Barnes, ‘Cartridges of the World’ and though he does list the ".401 Herter PoweMag’ revolver cartridges, he does not mention any of the ‘Ram Magnum’ rounds…though he does list numerous other obsure rounds…

So folks, what’s the deal with these rounds? I know George was not hopelessly addicted to the truth, so did these rounds exist only in his mind? I assume these rounds are of the ‘short magnum’ variety? Is there any info on these loadings?


#2

Hey Mack in NC. Welcome to the IAA Forum.

I grew up with George, although maybe in an earlier time - 1940s & 1950s. To an ignorant farm-boy with little chance of ever seeing the outside world, he was a god. Far better than Sears or Montgomery Wards catalogs.

I think most of the Herters cartridges and bullets were from a later period, say the 1970s and 1980s? By then, I’m not even sure there were any of the original Herters involved in the business.

But anyway, Herters has been discussed on the Forum several times over the years. A search may turn up what you are looking for. Here’s one that I found very quickly.

There are others, I’m sure. Also, I think that the Speer loading manuals had some data on the Herters cartridges. Maybe their Wildcat manuals?? The Ram Magnums were exotic cartridges, to put it mildly. Double and triple shoulders. Stuff like that. I used to collect wildcats and had some of them. But alas, they went along with all my other wildcat collection that I sold some years ago. I still have a few boxes of the Herters bullets (Sonic, Wasp Waist, etc) and some of the early catalogs but I donated my hard cover books to a local library about 15 years ago.

Good Luck

Ray


#3

Ray, thanks for your response, but part of the problem is that books I have, and refer to those cartridges, are earlier than the 1970s…Purely guessing…(from some of the photos) I am ‘assuming’ that perhaps the earlier ‘specialty’ catalogs from the 1950s might yield some info or one of the Herter reloading books,(there were at least two different ones…) might give me some additional info…


#4

I have some of the specialty catalogs from the 50s and they show only the more conventional loading dies. Nothing at all about any of the Herters cartridges. The Wasp Waist and other exotic bullets show up in the 1970s catalogs but, again, no mention of cartridges. So, I just assumed that they were from a later period.

I have the Speer Wildcat manual, 1956, and there is nothing in it.

But, hey, that was a long time ago and I can barely remember things that happened in this century, much less in the 20th.

There is a Forum member, Glenn aka Stonewall, who knows a lot about the old wildcats and maybe he will see this and chime in. Unfortunately, we lost our single best wildcat authority (Gene Scranton) just recently. He probably would have been able to answer your questions.

Ray


#5

I too have been collecting Herter’s for a while and I found a cartridge collector with the actual dimensions of the RAM carts. and he made them for me to specs. In one of Herters books he describes using these rounds on game animals. If you would like the man’s email address just send me a pm and I will give you his email since he also sells cartridges to collectors. Vic


#6

revised fourth edition 1976


QUESTION: Does Having A Neck Or Shoulder On A Case Effect Velocity?
#7

Thanks for posts, they have been very helpful…and while thinking about this, I picked up my copy of “The Truth About Hunting in Today’s Africa and How to go on Safari for $690.00” by George Leonard Herter and Jacques P. Herter which is listed as a first edition, published in 1963. In it, George writes on page 74 the ‘chapter’ titled ‘Masi Lion…(some of the ‘chapters’ in GLH books are only two or three paragraphs long…I have books by him with 4 chapters on a single page) Herter writes,"In 1962, Jacques P. Herter wanted to try the .270 Herter Ram Magnum and .300 Herter Ram Magnum on lion.’ So, according to George, the cartridges existed in 1962, or at least were being tested, but as I said in the very first post, in the '62 cat., the '64, the '65,the ‘67,or the 1969 catalogs,there is no mention of the dies being available…or brass…As as been said here in other Herter related posts, the Herter catalog was pure hype…Barnum and Baily hyperbole…everything is a ‘superlative’…the ‘model perfect’ …‘much better than competive models costing much more,’ ’ finest ever’ or (my personal favorite…) ‘made much better than it needs to be’… Good Ole George, as I said to start with, was no competition for Honest Abe or George Washington…(unlike Washington, Herter could tell a lie and do it with a perfectly straight face…) but I truely enjoyed his catalogs and much of the equipment was, indeed, if not the best ever, certainly perfectly usable…and Herter prices were very tempting to an always broke 15 thru 18 year old youngster…


#8

Vic

In addition to Glenn, I should have mentioned your name because I know that you collect Herters. And, of course, there is Ed who probably has chamber reamers and a complete set of loading dies. Now that I have moved up to collecting real cartridges, I tend to forget the wildcatters that I knew. :-) ;-)

It looks like macknnc came to the right place.

Ray


#9

"It looks like macknnc came to the right place."
And contributed some new to me information with a reference in Herters books too.

Woops !
I did forget a few.

And Squeek had a short walk.

Glenn


#10

Ed does have the ability to reproduce the Ram Herter’s cartridges as I have a set. If some one wants his address they can pm and I will send it to them rather than post it here. Vic


#11

Been doing some more flipping through the book I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, "The Truth about Hunting in Todays Africa’ and found a couple of more references…on page 104 in the chapter titled "A Modern African Elephant Hunt’ Herter mentions using a .458 Winchester, bemoans not having .470 double but adding " At this time we had not made the .473 Herter Ram Magnum. This in a good magazine rifle beats anything for a situation like this. [i]But[i] I seriously question this, not because of Herter’s fondness for hype and his ‘my stuff is better than your stuff’ mentality, but because, further on in the book, on page 188, he gives the ballistics of the .473 and quite frankly, they sound more than a bit anemic…a 400 gr bullet at MV of 2500 and ME of 2241…there are all kinds of cartridges beat the stuffing out of that all day long! Herter does mention the .458’s ‘excessive’ recoil and how the .473 has a much lighter recoil…

The .247 does sound awfully interesting though…I have long been interested in the off beat and the unusual, and this caliber does offer some interesting possibilities on pronghorn, (though nothing that the .240 and .257 Weatherby and the .25-06 does not, granted, with factory ammo being available) and it would be one heck of a converstion starter in an NC deer lease hunting camp. “What did you bring?” “Got my '06 with me,” “my old trusty .30-30” “I got a 7mm mag…” (no idea why but 7 mag is pretty popular caliber in NC…) and then I pipe up, “Oh I have .247 Herter Ram Magnum.” "A whaaa???’ Then you show them them that wild double shoulder cartridge…would be so much fun…