Flechette Discussion


#1

This is what I posted 2/05 on the earlier IAA Forum …do a search on “flechette”…more will turn up Lazy Dogs or Yellow Dogs (assumed referring to the “silent”…“lazy” or "chicken"way to deliver deadly force) have little published about them (at least that is easily located). I have yet to turn up a DOD manual and/or any “official” designation or name for the gravity driven flechettes. I have found no reference to their use prior to the early 1950’s (that would certainly debunk the many references to WWII and for sure WWI… The reasonably common gray steel colored type (used to see
them routinely at surplus stores) may not have been around until the
late 1950’s (the early version, prototyped in the early 50’s had a slightly longer “gentle” profile (10 x 57 mm +/-) than the small fat “bomb-let shape” (10 x 45 mm) more commonly offered on auction sites. The early examples had tail fins that were “rounded” on the two non attached sides, the later ones had squared off “tails”. (thus would stand up on a table if set on it


Other "Lazy Dog" Designs
#2

Fast forward to 2002/3 and the USAF CBU-107/B Tactical Munition Dispenser PAW (Passive Attack Weapon). This current inventory munition has a refined version of the early WWI gravity flechettes. Four different sized flechettes


#3

WOW! Those pictures and information are incredible, Pepper! Thanks. The one photo showing all the larger flechettes orientated together in their housing is one of the most fascinating. Are those the largest, gravity delivered flechettes in use?


#4

2 types on ebay.

tiny.cc/FIVCh


#5

Pepper, outstanding collection and info ! ! !


#6

The eBay description said that IT’S USE WAS BANNED BY THE GENEVA CONVENTION IN THE 1960’S BECAUSE THEY WERE SO DEADLY SO SILENT AND DEMORALIZING TO TROOPS. So is bow and arrow, and I know people who operated in Nam with bow and arrow. Sometimes these “rules” of war make no sense to me. Maybe we need a new legal definition of “hate” war as opposite to regular war.


#7

Pepper’s great posts above represent a tiny fraction of what he had in his outstanding Best of Show award winning display at SLICS.
That was a mind boggling exhibit, and worth the 3000 mile trip just to see that… but there was a ton of other neat stuff at SLICS as well.

Every ammo collector should attend- you won’t regret it! Bring your spouse and they can join the other spouses in their amusement at what cartridge collectors do for fun. The hotel rates are very reasonable, and it is a top quality operation that you can claim is a vacation (or a business expense?)

Pepper seems to out do himself each year with other superb displays, so you have an excuse to come back every year.


#8

I’d need to see evidence before I’d believe that: it sounds highly unlikely to me.


#9

know of no Hague Regulations or Geneva Convention


#10

couple things

the yellow or red “dust” within the flechettes…I am told to indicate/confirm to the gunner the load once it has been fired…the cloud of colored dust tells them the load has been dispensed

the “goo” on the band of 60 grain flechettes…my way of smearing a band of silicone sealer on the back side of the band (the tiny strings are frail and unravel)…so i can re-roll them for a sectioning project underway


#11

TOTALY AWESOME, Pepper! As always, your information and photos totally rock. I love that sectioned rocket projectile.

Jason


#12

Pepper, your pictures and effort are much appreciated.


#13

wow…you guys keep talkin’ nice…I’m liable to keep post “stuff”…sure is nice to feel “wanted” (or thanked !)

any clue what this is ??

and here is flechette canister that is a 1/4 (there are 4 pieces mounted in circumference) on the rocket…I think called a ZEEP rocket/missile (or ZEAP) (I do not have my paper work in front of me…I’m at work !)(someone correct me…but there are a bunch of little critters in it.

and an empty canister


#14

Fascinating stuff, Pepper!


#15

My notes say “ZEAP” rocket, Zero Elevation Anti Personnel…but nothing shows up on Google…and I recall having read some sketchy info about the rocket system…who has some “good stuff” on it ?


#16

Here a link to the Technical report of the 105mm XM 494 APERS Cartridge.
stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc … tTRDoc.pdf
And 2 drawings from the report.


#17

This is very interesting. Thanks Pepper.

Do you have a 40-mm flechette round that was used in the M-70? I never carried that round, but I heard that they were made.


#18

I am not much of a weapons designation guy…but the 40’s I have (or some I borrowed to display in 2005) were all for the M-79, M-203 style launcher (as I know it)…I do not know the M-70

I will post a few other scarce 40 mm flechette photos

Too bad this flechette stuff is getting buried in a Lazy Dog header

BUT…the question remains

does anyone have a DOD designation for the “Lazy Dog” bomblette…flechette ???

did it have a “M” number ???


#19

Sorry, I meant the M-79.


#20

a few non “40’s”…Paul’s work (he didn’t do the 40’s)(they are “factory”)