For 45 acp collectors


#1


#2

I don’t collect .45ACP but I browse through a lot of ammo at the shows and I’ve never seen French .45 yet. Probably I just don’t pay enough attention.


#3

french 45 acp I have seen a lot of them but never with this hstp
jp


#4

I have seen a few lists of advanced .45ACP collections and this headstamp has not appeared. It is not uncommon for headstamps to appear on shop drawings but never be used on production cartridges.


#5

These are the French .45 ACP headstamps I have in my collection:

ARF 73 Aluminum-case movie blank

  • GEVELOT * CAL.45 In many variations
  • S.F.M * GG Ball and blank
  • S.F.M * CAL.45 Ball and Blank
    SFM .45 ACP Several variations
    45 ACP THV SFM
    2 SF 47 I Several variations. I don’t collect lot numbers or dates - I show this for the
    basic headstamp.
    No Headstamp Early SFM ball round
    No Headstamp Various aluminum-cased movie blanks
    No Headstamp Experimental brass case body with black plastic base - probably by SIB

There is also the round of the same headstamp style as * S.F.M * CAL .45 and probably saying that, but the headstamp characters are a yet to be confirmed form of Turkish, or possibly some other language, thought to have been purchased by a Turkish contractor and for shipment to Ethiopia. It is known in several other calibers, and the problem of establishing the Ethiopian connection which has always been the “common wisdom” ID of this round is that both Turkey and Ethiopia are known to have used a hodge-podge of weapons including most and probably all of the calibers known.

SIB, Arcane and others loaded rounds in non-French cases - French loadings in cases FEDERAL 45 AUTO, W-W 45 AUTO, R-P 45 AUTO and HP 45AUTO are known.

I would agree with Jonny’s assesment and that the headstamp on the drawing never actually appeared on a cartridge, or if it did, never on a serial production round. I have never heard of any such headstamp appearing on a round. That, however, is not of itself conclusive. Rounds of common caliber but highly UNCOMMON headstamp have been found for the first time 50 and more years after their manufacture.


#6

“Rounds of common caliber but highly UNCOMMON headstamp have been found for the first time 50 and more years after their manufacture.”

And that is truly what makes this hobby fun, interesting, and yes, exciting!


#7

[quote=“jonnyc”]“Rounds of common caliber but highly UNCOMMON headstamp have been found for the first time 50 and more years after their manufacture.”

And that is truly what makes this hobby fun, interesting, and yes, exciting![/quote]

Exactly like this drawing !!! lol!
I am 99% sure it was unknown till today.

Not only ctge hunting is exiting but also documentation hunting is exiting !
jp


#8

Did Gevelot drawings use to be in english language and with inch measurements?


#9

The date of the drawing, the English Language, and the military headstamp style and designation on the drawing of M1911 tells me this drawing was probably a response to an offshore contract bid from U.S. Forces, possibly the Navy. It is roughly contemporary with contracts that were filled, in U.S. Style Boxes, by SMI of Italy, using the headstamp “SYI” and ENK of Greece using the “HXP” headstamp, both from the mid-1950s.

Perhaps the Italian and Greek bids were less than Gevelot’s. Pure conjecture on my part.


Greek Powder and Cartridge Co.box
#10

To Schneider :

You have three kinds of SFM drawings.

  1. The ones about the ctges manufactured by SFM are all in French.
  2. The requirements (specifications) given by the customers are in their language
  3. Factory drawings of other manufacturers which are of course in foreign language

To John Moss : I think you are right. Excellent remark.

JP


#11

Thank you JP. I just noticed the similarity of the headstamp layout to “SYI 54” and also the date.


#12

hi john !

Here is another ctge I discovered and could be of interest for you because it is in your field of collecting :
32 ACP experimental case with a hunting primer from before WWII

Nota for the amators of ctges who like the garage made assemblies of loose cases and bullets : be carefull of fakes of this one now !
In doubt contact me
JP


#13

JP, did they intend to create an easy reloadable case?


#14

JP - Fantastic. I have never heard of such a thing in that caliber, and the 7.65 mm Browning is a major interest cartridge for me. I have well over a thousand of them with out collecting dates or lot numbers.

I had a 7.9 x 57 Mauser round from Germany that had an odd primer of similar shape. The deadstamp on the case was only the year of case manufacture “21.” I don’t know if the primer was constructed the same or not, but it looked the same in outward shape.

If you ever find a dupe of that, keep me in mind.

John M.


#15

Hello Alex
I guess but till now i have no other info on this round (except of course the year I have hidden.)

JP


#16

[quote=“JohnMoss”]JP - Fantastic. I have never heard of such a thing in that caliber, and the 7.65 mm Browning is a major interest cartridge for me. I have well over a thousand of them with out collecting dates or lot numbers.

I had a 7.9 x 57 Mauser round from Germany that had an odd primer of similar shape. The deadstamp on the case was only the year of case manufacture “21.” I don’t know if the primer was constructed the same or not, but it looked the same in outward shape.

If you ever find a dupe of that, keep me in mind.

John M.[/quote]

Hello John,
About the 32 acp ctge, I unfortunately have no dupe, even a single round.
If I find one case it will be for you, I promish it.

About the 7.92 ctge, no idea, I still have not sorted the modern staff.
But from what I have readen “in diagonal” I don’t remember to have seen this in the SFM archives.
Perhaps in the DWM or Mauser archives, but I have not sorted them till now .

About the word “fantastic” yes i have found drawings of fantastic ctges nobody knows.

But I am not in the hurry to post them here for three reasons :

  1. my priority is to sort the shotshells drawings.
  2. due to the fact that only very few people on this forum have moved their xxxx to find me documentation on shotshells, I don’t see any reason to speed up
  3. furthermore when I spend time to put some drawing, very often I even don’t have a “thank you” !

Everybody knew already I am bad-tempered, now they are sure. Lol !

JP


#17

I think John is on the right track relating the GEV 53 headstamp to the SYI 54. Clearly the US Military had a contract for 45 ACP bought in an offshore contract in 1954. The buy was probably put out for bid in 1953 which would explain the date on the GEV headstamp. This drawing, in English, was undoubtedly prepared for a 1953 bid for the US Military contract that had ammo delivered by SMI of Italy in 1954.

Now the question is whether Bid Samples were submitted. Some of the most difficult (read nearly impossible) headstamps to obtain are those on bid samples of ammunition submitted for competitions. I have a couple, but it is frustrating to know that in each competition there were 2 or 3 or 4 other bidders who submitted their own headstamps that are not, in most cases, ever documented.

Did the GEV headstamp ever exist??? If the bid process in 1953 required a bid sample (which is possible, even likely) then some quantity (probably 1000 or less) were produced, and probably all delivered and shot up during the testing.

Some obvious questions:

  1. Did the US Military require bid samples of ammunition purchased in the 1950s?

  2. If so, were they always required?

  3. How big were these bid samples?

Great thread!!!

Cheers,

Lew


#18
  1. Where did they toss the fired brass?