For me unknown .303 / type 89


#1

Good morning
I wanted to know if anyone has information on this cartridge


has a ball that seems to be an explosive type 89 Japanese but the head is unknown to me, the cartridge is free of powder,
thanks for any information you can give me
Giovanni


#2

Looks like a Japanese 7.7 rimmed HE round to me. The flat tip of the bullet is distinctive.


#3

Yes john
but the type of crimping of the primer is Japanese?
Until now I have always seen circulars …


#4

Giovanni: Is the case body rebated immediately in front of the rim? It seems so to me. Jack


#5

Giovanni - I truthfully cannot directly answer you question about the primer crimps on 7.7 rimmed. When I collected 303, I had most of the known Japanese types, including those headstamped for the Japanese Imprerial Navy. However, I don’t have them anymore, and never took pictures of them.

However, I can tell you that on at least 6.5 Arisaka, the type of primer crimp shown is neither unknown nor even scarce. The violet color is typical Japanese for these rounds, as I recall, and the lack of a headstamp is typical. The whole round simply looks Japanese to me beyond any point of contention, but I do not pretend to be an expert on this stuff. I probably should never answer any question except on auto pistol rounds. I have, though, handled a very large amount of assorted Japanese ammunition over the years, in calibers 6.35 mm Auto, 7.65 mm Auto, 8 mm Nambu auto, 9 mm Japanese Revolver, 6.5 Arisaka, 7.7 rimless, semi-rimmed and rimmed Japanese, and 7.9 x 57 mm Japanese manufacture, and nothing looks out of order to me for this “.303” to be Japanese. It is all I can say. You might check Elks book. I don’t have time at the moment.


#6

Firstly, let us look closely at the Photo of both the profile and the Base of the case.

The Type 89 IJN (Imperial Japanese Navy) 7,7x56R was adopted in 1929, for use in Naval Lewis Guns and Aircraft Vickers Guns in Naval Aircraft, after much IJN research on British-Made Guns and Ammo acquired in the mid 1920s.

Whilst the IJA (Army) had the practice of NOT headstamping their small Arms Ammo, the IJN almost always stamped their with a traditional headstamp, comprised of the Naval Depot/Yard which produced the ammo, the “7,7” and the Quarter/Third of the Year according to the Shinto Calendar ( 1929 is “89”). Only very late in the war did the IJN drop headstamping of their ammo.

Next, Primer Crimp: The three-stab crimp common on T38 6,5 ammo (IJA Manufacture) and some IJA 7,9mm ammo (T98 Aircraft Gun, aka MG17), is NOT found on any Naval Ammunition, the IJN sticking with the Ring crimp used on British .303. Close observation of the Photo shows what look like “Chisel mark” crimps…the IJA stab crimp was Regular, and Rectangular “Stab”.

Also, the Primer Diameter on 7,7 IJN cartridges is 6,35 mm ( .250",) the same as for .303 British.

Next, the Projectile: It is “too Neat” for a real T89 HE projectile. It looks like turned steel, with a cut off Point.
The real HE 7,7 Projectile was slightly “rounded” at the larger flat Point, given that the outer Jacket was Drawn, not Turned; also the "flat ( or Meplat, the correct term for the Point of a Military Bullet) was slightly larger in diameter to the Photo’s example.

As seen in Elks and other texts, the HE Projectile was made of Two Jackets, the Inner containing the Lead Core, and the space between the inner Jacket and the outer Jacket was filled with RDX and Later, Picric acid. which on compression between the two Jackets on hitting a target, will explode. The Purple Lacquer was used on Both the Primer annulus, AND the Neck seal… and the Flat tip was a further “touch” indicator of its dangerous Nature.

It is Impossible to deactivate a 7,7HE Projectile. ( except by Exploding it)…over the years, several Inertia Bullet Pullers have been destroyed and fingers/hands injured by exploding 7,7HE projectiles…I remember an old Mines & Explosives Inspector friend of mine back in the early 70s, telling me he had destroyed some 10,000 rounds of 7,7HE on behalf of an Importer who had brought it into Brisbane, not knowing what it was…He ( the Importer) bought it as “.303” Ball. The Inspector was ex-WW II Australian Army Ordnance, and what he knew about Japanese Ordnance in the Pacific would fill several books. Sadly, he has since Passed away, not leaving any Notes or Publications…

So, my take on this cartridge is that it is a “Replica”, ( "Fake???) and not a well researched one…normal Ball T89 cartridges are common enough, and a properly made “Projectile” can be made to fit.

Seems like a Replica for the UK Market, where “collectibles” have to have Powder removed, and any “active” projectiles replaced by Inert ones.

But the Primer crimp is what gives it away in the first Instance. Also I would not be surprised that the Base of the case has been Polished to remove original Markings .

The groove in front of the rim is a typical American Manufacturing step, when finish turning the rim from its rough drawn/headed shape.

Saluti, Giovanni, e grazie per aver presentato questo “sconosciuto”, che purtroppo, sembra una “Truffa all’americana”.

Doc AV
Balisticus Cadralii in Provincia Cuneensis
(Australia)


#7

Doc - when you are speaking of the “base” of the cartridge, do you mean the “head” (hence “headstamp”)? The base is the portion of the case just above the rim. I ask only because if you are actually talking about the true base, then I am a bit confused on what you mean.

Regarding the round being a fake, that is quite possible! These rounds have been faked in at least calibers .303 and 7.9, because I have seen an obvious .303 fake, and had a fake 7.9, until I decided to destroy it rather than keep it as a curiosity. Hard to tell much about the meplat without a straight-on photo of it. When I had my .303 and 7.9 collections, and my license for Destructive Devices, my specimens of these cartridges in those calibers had a very, very flat meplat. I cannot make the statment that there was no curvature (bevel, fold, etc.) at the edge, but if there was, it would have taken a very strong magnifying glass to see it, as I recall.


#8

John, I have always used the terms exactly opposite of you; the head of the case being just above the rim, and the base being the recipient of the headstamp.
This is a basic measurement, I hope we can nail it down and all agree on what we mean by the cartridge “head”.


#9

My Interpretaion of Case Construction is the following:
Base (German Boden, Italian Fondello or Base (Ba-se’) is the Bottom face of the case, where the Headstamp ( Boden-Stempel) is placed.

The “Head " of the case (as distinct from “Body”, " Shoulder” and “Neck” and “Mouth” of the case, is that part (solid) of the case containing the Base, Rim, Primer Pocket, Extractor groove (if rimless) Cut relief groove (in from of US production rimmed cases), Internal web ( with Flash Hole) and the gradual radius into the Wall of the BODY (q.v)

The terms tend to be used interchangeably in English, and to a lesser degree in Italian.

Now I hope we all understand each other.

Doc AV.


#10

So Doc, when you give a Head diameter, what do you measure? I would measure at the point above the rim or extractor groove. Your definition is rather inclusive, rendering it rather vague.


#11

Head Diameter: Diameter of Case at a Datum Point .125" Inches ( or 3mm for Metric Cases) above Base ( Stand Cartridge on an Engineering Surface Plate or Glass Plate, Lay a 1/8" thick shim next to it, and then measure the diameter above the top of the shim.)

Rim diameter is exactly that (with either Rimmed or Rimless cases.)…it is Normal for the Rim diameter in Rimless Cases to be slightly above or below the Body Diameter.

Doc AV


#12

DocAV, there are drawings by well known manufacturers where the term “base” is used instead of “head” to indicate the place where the headstamp is located (the term “basestamp” is not used, anyway), but I think I have never seen a drawing where the term “head diameter” is used instead of “base diameter” to indicate the diameter above rim and/or groove. At the same time, there are drawings where the term “base” is used instead of “head” to indicate a portion of the lower part of the cartridge case (usually used to show a more detailed drawing of the dimensions of the inside of the case and primer pocket); however the dimensions of this portion of the case are always unspecified. In this regard, I don’t know how can you establish an exact datum point to be applied to all cases because the resulting location where this “head diameter” is placed will vary depending on the dimensions of the case measured.


#13

[quote=“DocAV”]
…Seems like a Replica for the UK Market, where “collectibles” have to have Powder removed, and any “active” projectiles replaced by Inert ones.

Doc AV
Balisticus Cadralii in Provincia Cuneensis
(Australia)[/quote]

Not strictly true Doc. What you say only applies to collectors who either do not want to apply for the correct paperwork or cannot be bothered.

There is a thriving community of collectors who collect live ammunition and have authority to hold “prohibited” items such as incendiary , explosive etc., projectiles. I have held such a permit for over fifty years and as you know have a pretty reasonable collection of British military rounds, all live.

Apart from replica resin projectiles in some 30 and 35mm cannon rounds there are very few few replicas of small arms projectiles in the UK.

Regards
TonyE


#14

[quote=“DocAV”]Head Diameter: Diameter of Case at a Datum Point .125" Inches ( or 3mm for Metric Cases) above Base ( Stand Cartridge on an Engineering Surface Plate or Glass Plate, Lay a 1/8" thick shim next to it, and then measure the diameter above the top of the shim.)

Rim diameter is exactly that (with either Rimmed or Rimless cases.)…it is Normal for the Rim diameter in Rimless Cases to be slightly above or below the Body Diameter.[/quote]

Doc, that last point you make raises a question which has always slightly bothered me: how big a difference between the Rim and Body diameters of a “rimless” case is permissible before the designation changes from Rimless to Rebated or Semi-rimmed (or should it be Semi-rimless?)?


#15

I believe the guideline for identifying cartridge as semi-rimmed would be that the cartridge headspaced on the rim rather than some other part of the cartridge case. Jack