Forum is off course


#1

All of these recent threads about 2 Pdrs, PDWs, and Kropatscheks has me concerned that this Forum is veering off course of its intended purposes. So, I guess it’s up to me to set the ship right and to steer it back toward what should be the goal of all of us, i.e., the study of Wildcats.

Today’s shooters have a general disdain for belted cartridges. Most think that the belt is like the human appendix, an addition that serves no useful purpose. But such was not always the case. During the second half of the 20th Century many wildcatters actually went thru the process of swaging a belt on the venerable 30-06 case, shortening it to various lengths and necking it to 22, 24, 25 and 26 calibers. The extensive labor, and little or no benefit, soon proved to be too much for even a certifiable wildcatter and the cartridges were short lived.

Here are six that you won’t find in many collections.

Ray


#2

C’mon guys. Surley there is at least one of you out there that find these unique wildcats interesting?

I should have been more clear in my description. The belt is not swaged “onto” the case but is a part of it. The belt measures the same as the 06 case head (.467 to .470) and the body ahead of the belt measures approx .447 to .450.

Ray


#3

When I saw the thread title and the author, I pretty much knew what the punch line would be. Love those Wildcats!


#4

Thanks for the picture, I too like the wildcats who, for instance, wouldn’t want to own a cartridge called a “Dalrymple .22 Express”.

I recently got hold of the book “Wildcat Cartridges” published in 1947. What suprised me was how many wildcats that I thought were modern, aren’t.


#5

[quote=“Ray Meketa”][/quote]
Hi Ray!
I would like to understand where is the limit in your wildcats collection?
Meaning, what are the genuine wildcats you collect ?
What are the points making you to decide to take or not a ctge in your collection ?
The fact a gun is on the market ?

JP


#6

Another style of “cat” for you, Ray

There are 3 “small” wildcats in this group photo (2 might now be considered propiarity rounds)

And 1 old (and small) wildcat in this group.


#7

Tailgunner

Yeah, the 228 Ackley Double Shoulder Magnum has to be one of the all time greats. I have one also. I understand that a well known East Coast shooter/wildcatter/dealer is set up to make authentic ones for collectors. A 224 Hansell double shoulder also resides in my collection although I never could figure out the “why” of it. The 22 DSH, on the other hand, was a legitimate Benchrest cartridge for a few brief moments in time. See JOURNAL #442, page 17.

Chris P.

See Chris, I don’t make these up!

Jean-pierre

I don’t collect the current crop of wildcats. Nor could I even if I tried. There are simply too many and the new ones really don’t interest me. Now that shooters have ready access to chamber reamers and all kinds of brass cases, anyone can make any kind of wildcat that suits their fancy. Most of them are designed by armchair wildcatters who do not shoot and many exist on paper only.

So, being an old shooter myself, I tend to collect only those from what I like to call the Golden Age Of Wildcatting, the period from the early 1900s to the 1960s. That was the age when some actual thought went into their design and most of them had some legitimate use. Well, most of them anyway.

As a Competitor I also collect any wildcat that has association with competition including Benchrest, High Power, Palma, Silhouette, and Handgun shooting of all kinds.

But my newest interest is in Pre-Nato US military experimentals.

Have Wildcats. Will trade. :) :)

Ray


#8

[quote=“Armourer”]Thanks for the picture, I too like the wildcats who, for instance, wouldn’t want to own a cartridge called a “Dalrymple .22 Express”.

I recently got hold of the book “Wildcat Cartridges” published in 1947. What suprised me was how many wildcats that I thought were modern, aren’t.[/quote]

Armourer

Yes, there is not much new. The only “new” wildcats are those based on one of the wide-bodied cases that have shown up the past few years. Most “new” ones based on old standbys like the 06 only duplicate what was done 50 to 75 years ago.

Ah yes, the Dalrymple Express. That has to date to the 50s. Byron Dalrymple, wasn’t it? I don’t have one BTW. Wanna trade? I’ll give you 2 Lindahl’s and a Lovell for it. :) :)

Ray


#9

Ray, welcome to the dark side.

This has got to be one of the most beautiful pre-Nato’s.

Headstamp is SUPER SPEED 300 SAV.


#10

Paul

Let it be duly noted that I am impressed - and jealous.

Is that case steel or plated?

I have two of the unloaded versions using the AP bullet and the same SUPER SPEED case. Photo of one with bullet in case is shown below.

I think Bill Woodin has suggested that the red indicates a particular load that was being tested as part of the very first experiments.

Does Bill know about your specimen or does he have one in the Lab?

Wanna trade? I have Wildcats. :) :)

Ray


#11

What interests me about wildcat cartridges is the ballistics over normal rounds ie a .22.250 compared with a .22.250 improved ie the neck angle change to get more velocity. Now rounds can reach the 4,000 fps mark it would be interesting to look at wildcat cartridges that peak 5-6,000 fps or what is currently being developed.


#12

BMG

Not all wildcats are/were developed with increased velocity as a goal. It is far easier to simply go to a bigger case.

Most wildcats were developed with a goal of increased efficiency and accuracy. This is particularly true with Competition wildcats although there will always be the shooter who thinks that velocity, and even more velocity, is the road to success. (See my recent “Boomers” article in the JOURNAL.)

Mother Nature’s Laws dictate that it is only possible for expanding gas to accellerate a bullet to a certain point, somewhere around 5000 fps, and beyond that you have to resort to other methods. I doubt if you will see cartridges exceeding the 4000 to 5000 fps mark in the near future but then I still think that cell phones are black magic, so what do I know. :) And even those cartridges that exceed 4000 fps are generally operating at pressures that would have been considered dangerous just a few years ago.

Ray


#13

Paul–I have that same .300 Sav. round. Mine came from the Frank Wheeler auction with 51 other Pre-NATO rounds and Early NATO (all date 1954 or before). I just pulled out my auction catalog and I see that I paid $35.00 for the lot or 69 cents per round. I wonder what it would cost today. I have always considered this round with tinned case, red extra heavy bullet and case head to be a proof round for the .30 Light Rifle. Do you have the actual designation?


#14

[quote=“Ray Meketa”]Tailgunner

Yeah, the 228 Ackley Double Shoulder Magnum has to be one of the all time greats. I have one also. I understand that a well known East Coast shooter/wildcatter/dealer is set up to make authentic ones for collectors. A 224 Hansell double shoulder also resides in my collection although I never could figure out the “why” of it. The 22 DSH, on the other hand, was a legitimate Benchrest cartridge for a few brief moments in time. See JOURNAL #442, page 17.

Have Wildcats. Will trade. :) :)

Ray[/quote]

I do believe that is where I got both of those “double shouldered” rounds from.


#15

Hi Ray - I can’t imagine the Lab not having this round. It is tinned. I also picked up the round you pictured at SLICS.

Hi Ron - Great buy! yes, certainly it is a proof round. But I don’t have a designation. I’m just waiting patiently for HWS Vol. 3…


#16

Ron

Do I understand correctly that you have some NATO rounds dated 1954?

I’ll be a nice guy and double your money without even seeing the cartridges. That’s $1.38 per each. Nah, make it an even $1.50 and I’ll pay the postage.

Ray


#17

Ron & Paul

I think the HPT for the T65 cartridge is the FAT71. Since this particular cartridge is pre T65 it may not have a T designation.

Ray


#18

Paul–Glad to have someone else say it’s a proof round also. It would not surprise me that this round does not have a “T” number. Sure would like to see a box for this round.

I have a pretty well complete list of “T” numbers from T1 to T334 and the only HPT Cal. .30 Light Rifle listings are:

T71–Cartridge, Test, High Pressure, Caliber .30, Short Case to Match Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30 T65

T71E1–Cartridge, Test, High Pressure, Caliber .30, T71 with case, Brass, FAT1E3, 183 Grains Approx. DWG FB 25449 M60.

As for Vol. 3 of HWS, I’m also waiting, but not patiently!! I was told by someone in a position to know that it will 1 1/2 to 2 years yet before publication.


#19

Ray–Your right of course, they are not NATO. The latest round in the lot was FA 54. When I typed that I was looking at the auction listing where they described it as 51 NATO Rounds through 1954.

Sorry to say, there were no duplicates.


#20

[quote=“Ron Merchant”]Ray–Your right of course, they are not NATO. The latest round in the lot was FA 54. When I typed that I was looking at the auction listing where they described it as 51 NATO Rounds through 1954.

Sorry to say, there were no duplicates.[/quote]

In 1980 I was surprised to be handed a 7.62 round for the FAL rifle with the headstamp F.M.M.A.P.B 1945. The shoulder was a little undersized, these were made in Argentina by pulling Mauser rounds and reforming the neck.

gravelbelly