French 7.9x57 Mauser


#1

I need a help with info about French made 7,9x57 cartridge. I get some SFM made
cartridge (see picture in attach). They loaded with S-type bullet, but
1 mm shorter then German S-Geschoss. I only find the description of
this cartridge in Brandt, Hamann, Dr. Windisch. DIE MILITÄRPATRONEN
KALIBER 7,9MM IHRE VORLÄUFER UND ABARTEN. 1981 on page 45.

Could you help me to find answers on some questions:

  • Who was a customer of such cartridges?
  • When they was produced?
  • Why their bullet was shorter then standard German S-Geschoss?
  • What was the official French designation (or commercial name) for this cartridges?
  • Did somebody have a a picture of the cardboard cartridge boxe of this SFM cartridge?

#2

I can not tell much but when Czechoslovakia adopted the 7.92x57 cartridge they initially ordered cartridges from France.


#3

Treshkin: If the SFM bullet has a flat base that could account for the difference in length. The German S bullet has a rounded cavity at the bottom of the core. Jack


#4

Here is a picture with S-Geschosses: French (left) and German (right)


#5

Treshkin - the two bullets are so similar in length that even if they weigh identically, it could be from nothing more than the density and/or shape of the lead core or the thickness of the bullet jacket material.


#6

Regarding the different SFM factory dwgs for the 7.92 caliber, the manufacture average lengh, must be comprised between 27.50 and 28.00 millimeters and the weight between 9.90 and 10.10 grammes. If I compare to dwgs from measurements taken on german manufacture , i find an average of 27.88 /27.99 and 9.90/10 grammes
But SFM DWG 7299 for an unknown contract in 1927 shows a lengh of 27.50/28.40 with a weight of 9.70/10.30
Note in Zeichnungen zu der anleitung zur anfertigung der munition 88 fur handfeuerwaffen bei
artilleriedepots ( Berlin 1894/1917 ) we have 28.00+0.40 -0.50 for the lengh and 10 +0.30 grammes. You see nothing is frozen !
Now about destination ( SFM made ): several tenth of millions were made during WWI to be used with arms captured by the allied , for rifles and MG ; to which can be added ammunitions in 7.92 cal for MG during the period WWI/WWII for example Darne MG by the french air force; later on, for small arms used in Vietnam and Algeria by French troups. For foreign contracts , Poland , Czechoslovakia, Croatia… and several south american countries ( with commercial hstp )


#7

[quote=“phil12”]Regarding the different SFM factory dwgs for the 7.92 caliber, the manufacture average lengh, must be comprised between 27.50 and 28.00 millimeters and the weight between 9.90 and 10.10 grammes. If I compare to dwgs from measurements taken on german manufacture , i find an average of 27.88 /27.99 and 9.90/10 grammes
But SFM DWG 7299 for an unknown contract in 1927 shows a lengh of 27.50/28.40 with a weight of 9.70/10.30
Note in Zeichnungen zu der anleitung zur anfertigung der munition 88 fur handfeuerwaffen bei
artilleriedepots ( Berlin 1894/1917 ) we have 28.00+0.40 -0.50 for the lengh and 10 +0.30 grammes. You see nothing is frozen !
Now about destination ( SFM made ): several tenth of millions were made during WWI to be used with arms captured by the allied , for rifles and MG ; to which can be added ammunitions in 7.92 cal for MG during the period WWI/WWII for example Darne MG by the french air force; later on, for small arms used in Vietnam and Algeria by French troups. For foreign contracts , Poland , Czechoslovakia, Croatia… and several south american countries ( with commercial hstp )[/quote]

Thank you for interesting answer.

My specimens (6 pcs) has bullets with following data:

Length - 27,05-2,30 mm
Diameter - 8,12 mm
Weight - 9,97-10,05 grams

Could you inform me what was the name (in French) of this cartridge in SFM drawings?

I think this cartridges was made after WWI, because they was found in the WWII trenches in Ukraine. It’s not a typical manufacturer of 7,9x57 for Ukrainian digged cartridges. So I will be happy to get as more info about them as possible.


#8

designation is very simple : Cartouche pour fusil Mauser Allemand cal. 7.92
Note that your ctg is for rifle, cartridges destinated for MG use are bearing 3 stab crimps around primer.


#9

[quote=“phil12”]designation is very simple : Cartouche pour fusil Mauser Allemand cal. 7.92
Note that your ctg is for rifle, cartridges destinated for MG use are bearing 3 stab crimps around primer.[/quote]

Thank you very much!


#10

Treshkin: I wonder if these cartridges weren’t supplied to the Romanian army. Is there any way that the area in which they were found could be associated with Romanian occupation? Even a negative answer would help narrow the possibilities. Jack


#11

I will try to ask people who change me that cartridges


#12

I already ask the guy who change me this cartridges. It said that they was found at the West Ukraine. I think, that there was no Romanian troops during war. I understand that this is not exact info, I will try to find real person who digged this cartridges.

If it can help - here is a picture with powder from SFM cartridges. As for me it looks like French BNF3 powder. Set me right if I am making mistake