French 9 mm para ctge with a truncated bullet


#1

Does somebody has in his collection a french 9 para ctge with a truncated bullet and with hstp * SFM * GG ?.
thanks


#2

I have one with a brass primer, truncated brass bullet and the older style headstamp. I have also seen a similar round but with a CN jacket truncated bullet in another collection.

Cheers,
Lew


#3

Sorry for the late answer

  1. SFM made two different truncated bullets 9 para ctges with the old style * SFM * GG hstp.
    Both have a nickel plated brass jacket
    (I don’t know if it is what you call CN ??)

They are not common ctges.

The first one is from 1919 trials. They copied the DWM ctge.
The second one is a 1925 production

Very small differences between them if any.

  1. I have found no trace of a non nickel plated brass truncated bullet ctge with .old style * SFM * GG hstp

  2. About the common ogival bullet 9 para ctge with .old style * SFM * GG hstp
    They started to manufacture them in 1920.
    There are two kinds of bullets:
    one with a nickel plated brass jacket (once again is it what you call CN ?)
    one with a nickel plated steel jacket (Is it that you call CN ?)

Perhaps you can differentiate them with a magnet ??

  1. There is another interesting bullet :
    ogival nickel plated brass jacket soft nose.bullet
    it was an order from Louis Dieu in 1923

JP


#4

JP, Great info. I will post a photo of my truncated SFM hst round later.

Who is Louis Dieu??? I have one of the softpoint rounds you mentioned but it was packed in a 24 round Polish style box with a HASAG label marked “Polish Origin”. Did Louis Dieu have any connection with Poland?

Cheers,
Lew


#5

Hello Lew

  1. Louis Dieu was a gun dealer in Paris.
    No idea if he has a connection with Poland.
    Perhaps because he was an ammunition dealer.

  2. Could you explain me what you call a CN jacket ?
    For me it means the jacket is in Cupro Nickel.
    It is totaly different of nickel plated.brass

JP


#6

I use this. Right or wrong?

CN = Cupronickel (steel color, copper –nickel alloy)
CNCS = Cupronickel Clad Steel (magnetic)
GM = Gilding Metal (copper color, mostly copper-zinc)
GMCS = Gilding Metal Clad Steel (magnetic)
Tinned GM –US early, grayish appearance
Nickel plated GM – Mexico pre-WW2, bright appearance
Brass – Argentina, Belgium, Denmark, France, Italy, Spain,
etc., mostly pistol ammunition
Nickel plated brass- Belgium, Italy: pistol ammunition
Steel, unplated – Austria , pre-WW2
Brass plated steel – Russia WW2
Nickel plated steel – Czechoslovakia, bright appearance
Zinc plated steel – Germany, WW2 on ball ammunition
with mild steel core, oxidized to various shades of gray

Dan


#7

JP,
the truncated cone SFM load I saw in a collection had a CN color bullet. it was not nickel plated. The one in my collection is distinctively a brass bullet. I can post an image if you would like.

Dan,
I can’t recall a German zinc plated steel case with a steel core in 9mm P08. The rounds with mild steel cores are the P08mE. The early ones have blackened bullets, but in about 1944 when the Germans basically quit producing lead core ammunition in P08 they quit blackening the P08mE bullets and left them with a bare GMCS jacket. Perhaps the Zinc plated steel bullets mentioned occur in other than 9mm P08.

Cheers,
Lew


#8

Lew,

  1. I can assure you most of the sfm bullets have
    either a brass jacket
    or a nickel plated brass jacket
    or a maillechort (nickel silver) plated steel jacket
    or a maillechort (nickel silver) jacket

And the 9 para bullets we are talking about are nickel plated brass.

Perhaps the people make a mistake when they say CN

  1. regarding a truncated brass bullet made by sfm before WWII I am very doubtfull because
  • there is no drawing showing it (and I have all the 9 para sfm drawings from before WWII)
  • furthermore almost all the handgun ctges of this period of time have a nickel plated brass jacket.

The weight of the truncated nickel plated brass bullet is : 7.65 to 7.75 grams which is less than a truncated dwm bullet
JP


#9

Lew, German 7.9 x 57 mm had actually two types of zinc-plated
steel-jacketed bullets:

Spitzgeschoss mit Eisenkern verzinkt (Spitzer bullet with zinc-plated,
steel-core bullet

Sptizgeschoss mit Eisenkern-lang (S.m.E.lg.) (LongSpitzer bullet with steel
core

Sometimes the zinc-plated bullets have a fairly smooth and silvery finish, as
opposed to slightly porous in appearance, and quite grey in color, and can be
confused with CNCS bullets.

I have never seen this finish on a German 9 mm Patrone '08.

John Moss


#10

JP, The truncated round I documented as having a CN jacket is in the Woodin Collection. It had a non-magnetic, relatively dull steel color jacket. It could have been a worn nickel silver but it was a long time ago when I documented it.

Cheers,
Lew