French aa ammunition


#1

Aside from the fact that this is a very strange looking gun does anyone have an idea why the ammo is so rare ?

37 Model 1925 AA gun


#2

Well a good bit of French ordnance has been strange looking and yet the ammo turns out to be pretty plentiful. On the other hand, this cartridge reminds me of the one employed in the U.S. Navy’s ill-fated 1.1 inch AA gun, which is a bad sign. Is there any reason to think this gun actually saw significant use? I’m not familiar with it, not that that means much. Jack


#3

I have an HE round that has the twin driving bands typical of European rounds that looks very much like the one in the photo, but it has a head stamp of ‘37-1902 MA | 1-2-37 and some marks I cannot read’. It has a case length of 223R mm and I have it listed as a French Light Tank Gun round. I have had it for years so my identification may be completely wrong. Bill


#4

That would be 37 X 277R (?).

The naval AA gun shown does not seem to have automated loading/firing capability and I would have to assume it was less than effective in its intended role with the advent of the faster mono-winged aircraft developed pre-WWII.

The round itself might be only slightly less effective than the 40x311R Bofors, but single loading such a small threat to a fast moving enemy must have been an exercise in futility.

The 1.1" 75 Cal. U.S. round (28x199SR for comparison) was perhaps anemic to an extent, but at least it was fired from a quad mounted automatic gun. History seems to indicate its most serious failings were due to the less than reliable system it was fired from. Maybe a fair round whose reputation suffered due to those damn engineers…

Dave


#5

Well it is french :-).

These single shot semi auto cannons are common between the war. That was the 30 years navy tactics - nobody beliefes in mass aircraft attacks.The german navy developed the C/30 gun. You throw in a round, breech closed automatically and fired the round ( one option you can choose) and eject the empty case. A trained crew could fire some rounds per minute :-).

youtube.com/watch?v=FdYZmkf- … re=related

The ammo is much hotter than the 40mm Bofors, reaching 1000 m/s. It was only used in France by the french navy and so, thanks to the british, a lot is on the sea bottom. The ammo itself was too powerful for full auto weapon so it disappears.


#6

Very interesting.Thank you. Germans fired off some of this as well.

Germany is supposed to have also made this ammunition. Have you seen any ?


#7

The 1.1 was standard ordnance throughout the war and the war ended with it mounted on at least 1 ship working the Atlantic coast of the US. It was not replaced because it was a bad system but rather that a better one was available with better range , target effect , ease of use and repair. The 1.1 sent plenty of Japanese aircraft into the sea. It put up a larger projectile envelope than the 40mm Bofors and faster BUT not as high.


#8

I have a TP round made with a french case (same marking as DrSchmittCSAEOD one) and a US bullet from a 37x223R M51A2.
Any explanation for this assembly that not seem a fake ?


#9

Crimped or stuck in ? Primer ?


#10

No crimp and no primer


#11

Any slug of 37mm can fit a 37mm case. The projectiles for these French cases are quite rare and even more so than the case. That projectile is certainly not for the French case and the wide driving band would cause higher pressures. I would say that it is a stuffer. Rare French case, common US projectile.


#12

Some drawings:


#13

Additional German use.


#14

[quote=“DrSchmittCSAEOD”]Additional German use.

[/quote]

An interesting re-use of captured equipment.

A US M3 half-track with a French AA gun, the M3 was generally found in Tunisia towards the end of the North African campaign. Captured equipment of all sorts was much sought after as so much Axis shipping was lost crossing the Mediterranean.

Happy collecting, Peter


#15

This is identified as the 1933 navy version of this gun. Does it take the same ammunition ?


#16

[quote=“enfield56”][quote=“DrSchmittCSAEOD”]Additional German use.

[/quote]

An interesting re-use of captured equipment.

A US M3 half-track with a French AA gun, the M3 was generally found in Tunisia towards the end of the North African campaign. Captured equipment of all sorts was much sought after as so much Axis shipping was lost crossing the Mediterranean.

Happy collecting, Peter[/quote]

Germany used materiel from nearly every country which it captured or fought. It is always odd for me to see US,British and Soviet tanks and/or aircraft with the German crosses on them. Most of the guns were used with captured ammo stores until they ran out but some types were manufactured. I have heard of German made ammo for this gun in question but have not seen it yet.


#17

[quote=“DrSchmittCSAEOD”]This is identified as the 1933 navy version of this gun. Does it take the same ammunition ?
[/quote]
Yes.

The 37x277R case is not particularly rare AFAIK. It was in common use in the French Navy.

Ammo for two French automatic 37mm AA guns is much harder to find (I’ve never even seen any):

37x218R for the Hotchkiss M1935 naval gun (experimental installations in the French warship Amiens reportedly saw action in 1940).

37x300R (I think) for the Schneider M1930, of which some 20 units were in service with the French Army in 1940 (IIRC).


#18

Noted that your 37X277R (your reference photo) is a case only. The projectiles AND cases are rare in the USA.

If you happen to have a box full what is your price ?

“AFIK” ?

I suppose that this means " I Don’t Know But this is My Opinion".

Maybe “IDKBMO” would be better; more scholarly.


#19

“AFAIK” = as far as I know. By which I mean that I recall having seen quite a few cases at the ECRA International over the years, and mine didn’t cost me much.

And in Europe too. Which is why I specified that the cases are not particularly rare. The projectiles certainly are.


#20

The artillery of 37mm Mle 1925 and 1933 are always in service in the French Navy as saluting cannon.
municion.org/51x224R/51x224R.htm